Stranded - KJ died at idle, no restart

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:33 am

I know the 10' truck is able to do it, I had to rent a 4-up from Uhaul to move my CRD in Crapnetticut back in February (don't ask)... But I wasn't looking to do it one-way. Their one-way rates are usually the same as whatever the mileage is from point A to point B - so while it may not be cheap, they do tend to give a better rate on longer trips.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

I've used the 10' truck to tow vehicles with before, so know that's a possibility.

What I'm leaning towards is finding something in the sub-$3000 range on a used car lot that can tow the KJ, renting a trailer, getting everything home, then selling whatever vehicle I pick up. It's a gamble, but at this point I need to be getting out of here and being able to recoup at least some of the cost is preferable to giving either the dealer or U-Haul money I'll never see back.

Ugh. Going to see what they say tomorrow before making a decision, but this just flat-out sucks. Whining over and done.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

Found an FCM. Used, untested, no idea if it'll work or not. Figured it was worth a shot based on the symptoms others have seen.

Should be here Weds. or Thurs. We'll see if anything changes or not with it in.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:55 pm

Hope it does. Everything has to go through the FCM, so if that has been damaged by water intrusion from the unused connector.... Then loss of comms is a distinct possibility.

mrhemi · **Joined:** Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:46 am **Posts:** 182

Been following this thread. Sucks being broke down on the road. Been there done that.

This is maybe a long shot but I haven't seen it mentioned in the thread. I have one of my CRDs displaying similar symptoms intermittently. Have traced it down to the actual ignition switch, the electrical portion, not the key tumbler. I found a write up somewhere on another Jeep forum discussing this also, not CRD specific. I have purchased a replacement switch to change out when it fails for good. Years ago I had the same thing happen in full size Ford Bronco I had. First it wouldn't engage the starter, but that was easy to jump on the olf Ford starter solenoid. Then the switch deteriorated to the point it wouldn't arm the ignition either and had to be changed out. I did find a Youtube video detailing the switch change out on a KJ. Just a thought, might be worth looking at.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

geordi wrote:

Hope it does. Everything has to go through the FCM, so if that has been damaged by water intrusion from the unused connector.... Then loss of comms is a distinct possibility.

I've been thinking about this, and the FCM is something that I've never run into on any other modern vehicle (gas or diesel) that I've owned.

Most of the historical discussion surrounding its function has come down to equating it to a wireless router. That analogy probably isn't totally off-base, but I suspect that it does a bit more than just blindly passing traffic from all of its connected subsystems up to the ECM. Here's my suspicion:

The FCM is, in a sense, a translator. It takes inputs from multiple subsystems, converts them into CANBUS packets that the ECM can understand, and sends them on to it. This functionality really should have been built directly into the ECM (and, assuming I'm right about this, God only knows why it wasn't), but that's the approach DCX chose.

This goes some way towards explaining why an ECM failure could potentially look like an FCM failure, based on what's been said so far -it seems as though the OBD port may actually hang off of the FCM, not the ECM.

We'll see what happens over the next couple of days, but I am 100000000% behind the idea of the FCM being useless at this point.

Billybob · **Posted:** Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:41 am

casm wrote:

geordi wrote:

Hope it does. Everything has to go through the FCM, so if that has been damaged by water intrusion from the unused connector.... Then loss of comms is a distinct possibility.

I've been thinking about this, and the FCM is something that I've never run into on any other modern vehicle (gas or diesel) that I've owned.

Most of the historical discussion surrounding its function has come down to equating it to a wireless router. That analogy probably isn't totally off-base, but I suspect that it does a bit more than just blindly passing traffic from all of its connected subsystems up to the ECM. Here's my suspicion:

The FCM is, in a sense, a translator. It takes inputs from multiple subsystems, converts them into CANBUS packets that the ECM can understand, and sends them on to it. This functionality really should have been built directly into the ECM (and, assuming I'm right about this, God only knows why it wasn't), but that's the approach DCX chose.

This goes some way towards explaining why an ECM failure could potentially look like an FCM failure, based on what's been said so far -it seems as though the OBD port may actually hang off of the FCM, not the ECM.

We'll see what happens over the next couple of days, but I am 100000000% behind the idea of the FCM being useless at this point.

I agree with you...could be the FCM or the leads going to it. They send the CAN Bus and also some PCI and SCSI all over the place....ECM, BCM, OBD, Cluster etc....check the wiring diagram!

There have been some posts here recently regarding FCM problems...I would start off by making sure the connector is 100% clean and inspect the wiring coming from the connector.

These serial lines run all over the place and a short or break anywhere could hold up the line.
Connect everything back together as at the time of failure and let us start from the beginning as to what is happening, what console lights come on, what happens when ignition key is turned to Start etc. :wink:

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:50 pm

of the recent posts about FCM problems in 2005 CRDs at least one turned out not to be the FCM. Also as a video by Sir Sam on you-tube video (corobotchicken) even if the FCM is bad the CRD will still start one time even with it unplugged and if codes cleared I believe it will restart at least once each time orr at least two times total. If ECM bad it should not act in this manner even if it is intermittent.

biggfisch · **Posted:** Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:42 pm

Man, that's super frustrating. If the FCM doesn't get it licked, get it back to OKC and we'll get it figured out. I'll even bring the beer.

I think your best bet is going the uhaul route. That'd get you the proper equipment, with a nationwide support network if something (else) breaks.

Alternatively, anyone up for a casm relay across the states? I'll do the last leg (St. Louis to OKC). It'll be the Iditacrd!

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:08 am

biggfisch wrote:

Man, that's super frustrating. If the FCM doesn't get it licked, get it back to OKC and we'll get it figured out. I'll even bring the beer.

I think your best bet is going the uhaul route. That'd get you the proper equipment, with a nationwide support network if something (else) breaks.

Alternatively, anyone up for a casm relay across the states? I'll do the last leg (St. Louis to OKC). It'll be the Iditacrd!

Just send him the sled dog team. Hitch them to the CRD and pull her home. Lol

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

foxmiles · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:26 am

Quote:

Alternatively, anyone up for a casm relay across the states? I'll do the last leg (St. Louis to OKC). It'll be the Iditacrd!

Haha, that idea tickles me! I don't have anything bigger than the Jeep for towing at the moment, so that raises a question I've been wanting to ask, Has anyone towed a CRD with a CRD? Either flat, with a tow dolly, or a trailer? Weight is probably a problem with the trailer and I doubt uhaul would rent anything for that configuration. I'd definitely want trailer brakes, and I don't have a controller installed, although I have been eyeing one... (and u-haul has surge brakes)

Anyway, yea, U-Haul is probably your best bet if you can't get her going. Years ago, my father had a few cars moved with U-Ship, so that might be an option for you too.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:02 am

Yes. I’ve towed another CRD with my CRD, on a tow dolly from uhaul.
From Baltimore to Jacksonville FL. I-95 the whole way, mostly flat.
Keeping my CRD running cool was a struggle once the summer afternoon sun kicked in. Had to keep the AC-off, speed no faster than 60mph, and occasionally turn the heater on.
But I’ve improved my engine cooling since then.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:08 pm

I have towed a CRD with another CRD on dolly no problem. Since towing capacity rated about 5000 for CRD and CRD weighs around 4400 and dolly weighs few hundred it barely meets hauls weight criteria. They won't let you tow too heavy a weight if their computer system doesn't say its ok.

I also have a FCM that I know is good and one that I haven't used so don't know about.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:02 pm

Uhaul's system will NOT allow equal weights between the towing vehicle and the one behind. The curb weight of the CRD is 4300 lbs, and their dollies are overbuilt at 800 lbs. So that is a full stop right there.

I have towed CRDs both on a dolly as well as on a 4-up trailer, and the CRD is more than capable at the task. Handling is the concern with the weight and having it properly loaded. If you have never had an issue with a tow dolly, count yourself lucky. They are evil and squirrelly and can cause you trouble at the drop of a hat. Loading a trailer is extremely critical for good handling, and a dolly does NOT give you that capability.

foxmiles · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:44 pm

Good to know, I have a decent tow dolly, but it doesn't have brakes. I think it has mounts for them so I might do that some day. I used to tow it behind a E350 and you wouldn't know it, or the car on it was there. I mostly towed little cars though, a f150 was the biggest thing I've ever had on it, and I was nervous. The only trouble I've had is screwing up and needing to back the stupid thing up loaded. My dad totaled a ford ranger when I was a kid towing a minivan on a dolly, so I'm leery of towing with a similar sized vehicle because of that. (So I guess that kinda counts as them causing me trouble)

I kinda figured that with uhaul, it only makes sense. They're dealing with the public, and people are stupid so they have to set some limits. I can't blame them.

I just have this little itch that I really like my Jeep, so much that "What if something happens to it?" nags at me. The obvious solution is to have 2... Of course I'd need a way to get it home! The "what if something happens to it while it's not in my garage" nags at me too (especially reading this thread). Good to know if I end up with 2 and one breaks down that the other would likely suffice as a rescue vehicle~ (probably all a pipe dream for me, but that's ok~)

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread, hopefully the fcm fixes it and casm can make it home soon! Keep us posted. I'll help if I can.

taroo · **Joined:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 292

casm wrote:

This is virtually identical to what I'm seeing, except that I don't even get the 3-second start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mFYesTZDo

Really!!!! Drove to the store and all was fine. Went out to run another errand and no crank, no nothing. Lights on the dash, etc but no click or grunt. Let the fun begin!!

Also, did CASM find a solution?

My battery is nearly new, and no signs at all of a problem. Just went out and dead. I had to get to the airport so will start the troubleshooting when I get home next week.

Jay ne Ohio · **Joined:** Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:49 pm **Posts:** 216

taroo wrote:

casm wrote:

This is virtually identical to what I'm seeing, except that I don't even get the 3-second start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mFYesTZDo

Really!!!! Drove to the store and all was fine. Went out to run another errand and no crank, no nothing. Lights on the dash, etc but no click or grunt. Let the fun begin!!

Also, did CASM find a solution?

My battery is nearly new, and no signs at all of a problem. Just went out and dead. I had to get to the airport so will start the troubleshooting when I get home next week.

A couple possibilities:

Broken ignition switch actuator pin. The little plastic piece breaks and won't let the key go all the way to the start position. About 40 bucks at most auto parts stores.

Bad starter or loose wire on the starter.

Billybob · **Posted:** Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:28 am

taroo wrote:

casm wrote:

This is virtually identical to what I'm seeing, except that I don't even get the 3-second start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mFYesTZDo

Really!!!! Drove to the store and all was fine. Went out to run another errand and no crank, no nothing. Lights on the dash, etc but no click or grunt. Let the fun begin!!

Also, did CASM find a solution?

My battery is nearly new, and no signs at all of a problem. Just went out and dead. I had to get to the airport so will start the troubleshooting when I get home next week.

Yes probably the Actuator Pin Assembly broken...lots of posts on this happening.
Check Fuse #8 40 A under the hood and try start in Neutral instead of Park.

Remove the Starter Relay and briefly jumper female pins 30 and 87 inside the empty socket with key in ignition and in Park/Neutral....this overrides the ignition switch, actuator pin and Park/Neutral sensors.

New Actuator Pin Assembly can be bought from Dorman....Dealers do not stock it. :wink:

taroo · **Joined:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 292

Billybob wrote:

taroo wrote:

casm wrote:

This is virtually identical to what I'm seeing, except that I don't even get the 3-second start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mFYesTZDo

Really!!!! Drove to the store and all was fine. Went out to run another errand and no crank, no nothing. Lights on the dash, etc but no click or grunt. Let the fun begin!!

Also, did CASM find a solution?

My battery is nearly new, and no signs at all of a problem. Just went out and dead. I had to get to the airport so will start the troubleshooting when I get home next week.

Yes probably the Actuator Pin Assembly broken...lots of posts on this happening.
Check Fuse #8 40 A under the hood and try start in Neutral instead of Park.

Remove the Starter Relay and briefly jumper female pins 30 and 87 inside the empty socket with key in ignition and in Park/Neutral....this overrides the ignition switch, actuator pin and Park/Neutral sensors.

New Actuator Pin Assembly can be bought from Dorman....Dealers do not stock it. :wink:

Billybob, et al,

You guys and this forum are great. I have followed and contributed for years and what a great community. The ignition actuator assembly was broken. I removed the relay and and the engine would start, then I focused on the ignition actuator as you suggested.

I used this video to get tips https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5mo3OADUnA

Below is a pic of the broken actuator.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:13 pm

Taroo - Excellent, glad you got it sorted!

Another possibility for a no-crank situation is the solenoid pack in the transmission. THIS is where the park / neutral interlock is located, and NOT in the actual handle assembly. If the transmission solenoid is unplugged... Dead stick. The computer will boot up, but you get nothing when requesting a start. Unfortunately the solenoid pack is replaced as a unit, the sensor is not a separate piece. I don't yet know if there is any way to directly communicate with that sensor or if there is a code when it dies... But that's where we are at the moment. Replacing the solenoid pack isn't terribly hard, but it is a bit messy.

Stranded - KJ died at idle, no restart

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