group letter to CX...

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:50 pm

vtdog wrote:

Dear Jeff Bell,

I am basically happy with my CRD. I now have over 28k miles and it has been in the shop only once (EGR) beyond normal maint. There are some things I would like changed and I believe Jeep should be more responsive to customer queries. If you would contact me I would be happy to advise.

VT Dog

P.S. Please give the purchase price back to the 6 or so whiners who constantly have complaints and worry incessantly about every little squeak, thump, or possible-maybe (down the road) problem that might arise. Since they won't do like Diesel Inferno and get rid of a car they don't trust, buy it back and make everyone happy.

When I hear whining, it is usually coming from a dog.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:55 am

vtdog wrote:

Dear Jeff Bell,

I am basically happy with my CRD. I now have over 28k miles and it has been in the shop only once (EGR) beyond normal maint. There are some things I would like changed and I believe Jeep should be more responsive to customer queries. If you would contact me I would be happy to advise.

VT Dog

P.S. Please give the purchase price back to the 6 or so whiners who constantly have complaints and worry incessantly about every little squeak, thump, or possible-maybe (down the road) problem that might arise. Since they won't do like Diesel Inferno and get rid of a car they don't trust, buy it back and make everyone happy.

I'm also very happy with my CRD as well. I took it on a cross country trip pulling 2000lbs trailer up to 75MPH thru the mountains and it did it well and got 23mpg. Now that I'm here my local driving still gets me 22mpg with all the hills and short trips. My wife is so impressed that she want a diesel for her next car. If DC don't make one then it will be a MB or VW. I believe the poor quality fuel is the root of most problem experiance. I know I been using low sulfer #2 lately and running fine, ultra low sulfer should be better for egr and flow problems.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:46 am

Crossing my fingers too as my CRD is running just fine. Yes I do have oil in the intercooler hoses but otherwise things are good. If I had problems I would sign your letter. Tell then I have really nothing to complain about.

GreggD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:05 am

vtdog wrote:

Dear Jeff Bell,

I am basically happy with my CRD. I now have over 28k miles and it has been in the shop only once (EGR) beyond normal maint. There are some things I would like changed and I believe Jeep should be more responsive to customer queries. If you would contact me I would be happy to advise.

VT Dog

P.S. Please give the purchase price back to the 6 or so whiners who constantly have complaints and worry incessantly about every little squeak, thump, or possible-maybe (down the road) problem that might arise. Since they won't do like Diesel Inferno and get rid of a car they don't trust, buy it back and make everyone happy.

I don't consider voicing my opinion about the same parts failing continously as whining. You say you're "basically happy with your CRD". Why aren't you thrilled? You call those of us who have had more trouble than you have whiners. I don't get paranoid about every squeak, thump, or bump I hear. I've never said or implied that I don't like my Jeep, didn't trust it, that I wanted to get rid of it, or wanted DC to buy it back. I just want it to have as few problems as possible. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:24 am

vtdog wrote:

Dear Jeff Bell,

I am basically happy with my CRD. I now have over 28k miles and it has been in the shop only once (EGR) beyond normal maint. There are some things I would like changed and I believe Jeep should be more responsive to customer queries. If you would contact me I would be happy to advise.

VT Dog

P.S. Please give the purchase price back to the 6 or so whiners who constantly have complaints and worry incessantly about every little squeak, thump, or possible-maybe (down the road) problem that might arise. Since they won't do like Diesel Inferno and get rid of a car they don't trust, buy it back and make everyone happy.

Who said anything about whining. I've seen enough in my CRD experience to make me screaming mad about the screwing I'm taking on this rather pricey consumer item. Those "little squeeks and thumps" are actually the LBJ's about ready to fall apart (which did get replaced). The transmission problems and CAC oiling are very real and happening right now. DCX and the dealer have been absolutely worthless in addressing the issues and basically ignored my complaints until I threatened to sue them. And no, I won't just trade-off a 9 month old car and take an additional beating over the negligence of a manufacturer. You did get one assumption correct, I will be happy to take a check and go away.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I am basically happy with my CRD.... vtdog

Good for you. Some of us really like our CRD's and want them fixed - but I don't want to be stranded in live traffic a 3rd time, as has already happened to me twice, once when my tc exploded (to use the term the mechanic who replaced it used) and a week later when the turbo overboosted on an expressway and went into limp-in mode with no throttle response and a 25 mph top speed limit.

Having to watch my CRD mechanically fail before warranty repairs will be performed goes against everything in me. I enjoy taking care of all of my vehicles and do not like having 2 quarts of oil in my intercooler. I don't care for the grinding when shifting into reverse after the tc replacement, a symptom I didn't have until then. I don't want to "get rid" of my CRD - I want it fixed correctly. I don't enjoy having to restrict my travel in the CRD to local trips because I don't know when the next failure is going to occur. I don't enjoy hearing large metallic banging from the driveline when my transmission starts shuddering and jerking. I don't enjoy having the dealership tell me that unless DCX issues a real fix, there is very little they can do to resolve that issue (and that is true - they can't fix an engineering flaw/software bug). I don't enjoy the 7 trips to dealerships with the shortest time being 2 days to do nothing more than clear the codes and the longest time being 10 days to replace an egr valve, a condition diagnosed on the 2nd day and the rest spent on waiting for STAR to be convinced the egr needed replacment and authorize the repair( information provided by the mechanic who replaced the egr). 2 days after getting the CRD back with a new egr valve, 2 glow plugs failed, which required another 7 day visit. The issues are real.

Writing a letter to DCX and raising the issue to journalists if they don't respond to those of us who don't have a trouble free CRD is a reaction to the lack of consistent support from DCX. By your own admission you don't have any serious problems - I wish my experience was the same as yours. Since it isn't, we're going to raise attention to real data, not emotion.

Enjoy your CRD

Reggie · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:16 am

vtdog wrote:

Dear Jeff Bell,

I am basically happy with my CRD. I now have over 28k miles and it has been in the shop only once (EGR) beyond normal maint. There are some things I would like changed and I believe Jeep should be more responsive to customer queries. If you would contact me I would be happy to advise.

VT Dog

P.S. Please give the purchase price back to the 6 or so whiners who constantly have complaints and worry incessantly about every little squeak, thump, or possible-maybe (down the road) problem that might arise. Since they won't do like Diesel Inferno and get rid of a car they don't trust, buy it back and make everyone happy.

What an A**. I guess that the 40% of us that are having serious issues are whiners? I personally don't look forward to going to the dealer every 6 weeks because of another part that has failed. This is by far the worst vehicle I've owned as far as reliability - ever! I would be very happy if DC buys it back. I can't wait to hear how load you squeal when your tranny drops on the highway. Hopefully your dealer will tell you to go away and stop whining.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Wow,

Who wudda thunk (as they say). Guess I really hit a nerve about that whining comment. I still stand by what I said before: its only a few of you who keep complaining about everything. If the failure rate were 40% on the CRD that means approx. 4400 (40% of 11,000) woulda be jumping up and down and screaming. Instead its only about 6-12 of you.

The only part that had that kind of failure was/is the EGR which may have been 100% on early models (mine included). Hey, guess what-they fixed it in a few hours under warranty.

if you guy wanna call me an ahole for telling the truth, thats ok. As I said, I understand "its just a car".

sbohner · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:53 am

Innocuous letters get innocuous responses :wink:

. If my years in business have taught me anything, the vague letter will not provide any substantial response – perhaps a mollifying letter from customer representative at DC who deflects substantive questions. While starting letters with a positive perspective are good, the point of such a letter must be clear and non-threatening to start with.

With what I have read on the L.O.S.T. forum for the CRD, I would not judge the general CRD populous as being happy with the following :shock:

:

1. The oil blow by is a well-known problem in diesel manufacture circles that should have been avoided if DC wanted to truly enter the diesel vehicle SUV market. Other companies have solved the problem (with ProVent or other designs), but DC chose to ignore it. The oil blow by problem has stemmed into excessive EGR failures which cascade into other failures with the air control valve and the glow plugs. It seems like a good economic decision for DC would be to have a recall on all CRDs for a new/effective venting design (like ProVent) and to avoid future litigation costs for the systemic failures that will persist in the product line (let alone the bad press that is likely to ensue).

2. The proliferation of automatic transmission (torque converter) problems spans several products (i.e., Grand Cherokee, Dodge Trucks) and wisdom of DC to purposefully introduce this into their CRD entry is questionable at best. In a high torque application at low RPMs, this transmission has not shown success – perhaps a clue to have avoided it on the CRD. A manual transmission entry would have attracted a stronger client-base given the Jeep moniker. That being said, they cannot replace 11,000+ transmissions or torque converters.

3. DC’s stance for customer service on the CRD has been defensive at best. For example, the general response of DC on their Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) is to put the burden of proof on the customer. Just coming in saying, my CRD’s shifting between 50 and 60 MPH causes a shutter is not sufficient to have the TSB engaged. You must generate a code in the CRD’s diagnostics or have a hard failure. By then, the damage has been done and the product’s lifespan has been compromised. If it is a known problem, the TSBs should be available with little “smoking gun” evidence required.

I liked Ranger1's list. While we could include items from the Liberty line in general (e.g., lower ball joints, unmet fuel mileage expectations), I think that these summarize most of Ranger1 listed and what I’ve reviewed from the CRD related discussions. Hopefully, this would be a small enough number of items that they think that it can be resolved readily.

The point that CRD owners love their Liberty so much that they have even invested in 3rd party products to solve the problems shows that DC has a good opportunity to turn lemons into lemonade (good positive point to make in a letter to DC executives – they understand customer retention strategies since it is often cheaper to keep a customer than to try and find a new one).

Anyway, if DC/Jeep staff are reading this forum (and it would wise to be reading this and other forums :wink:

), perhaps they will see our discussions and circumvent group letters like this by preemptively announcing decisive action to ensure early diesel adopters with DC/Jeep get focused attention to resolve issues before they become problems

. It would build confidence in the Jeep Diesel customer-base (today and in the future) and remedy future risks that unhappy customer groups will act in unison to get their needs met. Additionally, it would respond to the fact that they reduced the warranty period for CRDs in their second year of production – not seen as a positive sign.

My own opinion is that if DC is truly interested in making money in the diesel SUV market, they should let other organizations solve the legal problems with emissions (something that a lot of money can be thrown at with little return right now), and turn their efforts towards their burgeoning diesel customer-base in the SUV community where the money will ultimately come from. The trend is moving away from SUVs with the rising costs of fuel. The diesel offers a reasonable solution to retain plant investments for this market and winning over many other SUV drivers from the competition.

Obviously, I am a CRD fan (albeit still on honeymoon with my recent purchase :lol:

). I would like to stay a fan so resolving these issues is important to me. I hope that this perspective is helpful.

Reggie · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:03 pm

vtdog wrote:

Wow,

Who wudda thunk (as they say). Guess I really hit a nerve about that whining comment. I still stand by what I said before: its only a few of you who keep complaining about everything. If the failure rate were 40% on the CRD that means approx. 4400 (40% of 11,000) woulda be jumping up and down and screaming. Instead its only about 6-12 of you.

The only part that had that kind of failure was/is the EGR which may have been 100% on early models (mine included). Hey, guess what-they fixed it in a few hours under warranty.

if you guy wanna call me an ahole for telling the truth, thats ok. As I said, I understand "its just a car".

Look at the poll at the top of the forum - 40% of the people are having problems with egr valves, glow plugs, ball joints, or trannys. No wonder DC is pulling the plug. And hey guess what -they have NOT fixed it because there are a lot of us that are on the second or third egr valve. You sound like a mopar apologist to me. I guess in your mind it can't be crap if it's made by DC. The "truth" is that this platform is having some major issues that need to get resolved. When you have 100k on your rig with no further issues, than you can come back and tell us how great it is. Until then don't preach your version of the "truth" while the rest of us are waiting at the service counter because our rig is in the shop yet again.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:10 pm

vtdog wrote:

Wow,

Who wudda thunk (as they say). Guess I really hit a nerve about that whining comment. I still stand by what I said before: its only a few of you who keep complaining about everything. If the failure rate were 40% on the CRD that means approx. 4400 (40% of 11,000) woulda be jumping up and down and screaming. Instead its only about 6-12 of you.

The only part that had that kind of failure was/is the EGR which may have been 100% on early models (mine included). Hey, guess what-they fixed it in a few hours under warranty.

if you guy wanna call me an ahole for telling the truth, thats ok. As I said, I understand "its just a car".

Well, you can add me to the list, so I guess that makes 7 to 13 whiners by your count. Oh yes, there's my friend in TX, so make that 8 to 14. And yeah, there's a guy at work with one in the shop for a month and a half now, so make that 9 to 15. And another guy at work who's girlfriend has one with problems, so make that 10 to 16. You want me to keep counting?

More people than are on this list are having problems. You're not being called an ahole for telling the truth. You're being called an ahole because of your sorry attitude towards others on this list that ARE having serious problems with their vehicles.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

As of March 13, 2006 he had a 2002 Liberty listed on his sig... either his sig is not updated or a whopping 3 months worth of CRD experience talking here. I became interested when he claimed his egr was fixed in a few hours... No wonder he's happy with his service. He must have the only Jeep dealership in the entire US that has the parts waiting on him, anticipating his needs.

PS - Glen, I see you live nearl Montplier Vt. How about providing us the name of your Jeep dealership who fixed your egr so fast. I would like to contact them by phone and ask their advice on how to resolve these issues and to see if you even own a CRD.

Thanks,

Ranger1

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Ranger,

At least get your facts straight. I live in NH, not VT (although I am from Vt). VT is a Cal state and you cant buy a CRD there. I never had a '02 wrangler. In fact, the CRD is my first "american" car in over 30 years (I did have a ford truck for a while though). My EGR was fixed at Mariano Jeeo in Concord NH. I took it in one day after CEL light, about 90 min later they ordered part and I came back about a week later and left Jeep there, but got call about 3 hrs later that jeep was ready. That was at 10k. So far (28k miles) no repeat problem. In fact I had the tranny re-flash done during a routine service due to all the "facts" about tranny problems listed here. It did seem to jump my mpg some, but other than that I can't see a difference. I can't explain why my Jeep has been ok and yours & some others have been bad.

I don't worry about the car at all. I turn the key, wait for the glow plug if needed and drive off. In cold weather, much to the horror of many here, I didn't even bother to plug in the heater. The Jeep started up at -12F with a little rough running. I also never used any of the fancy (and expensive) additives touted here. The jeep gets whatever comes out of the pump. I travel alot over New England in my job and fill at many different places. Only once did I think I got poor fuel in all my travels and I fixed it by refueling sooner. I had a '78 Rabbit diesle that I drove till the body fell apart (engine still was good). I did not baby it, nor treat it more special than any other car. If that "old school" rabbit started and ran fine for many years why should'nt the hgh tech jeep?

Yes, I know some have problems, but if you look at who complains, it always seems the same ones (and you know who you are). That woman with the constant cel problem probably has a bad ecm/pcm, or chaffed wiring. If its the part it should be easy to fix, if its wiring it will never be right and she should just lemonlaw the thing.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I never said you had an 02 wrangler. But I find this post of yours back in October, when you actually had an egr failure, inconsistent with the statements you're putting out earlier. I quote from your earlier post:

Quote:

10,200 mi. CEL light came on. I checked codes and got EGR numbers. Called dealer, he agreed with codes, but said that they could not order new valve until they verified. Went in, guess what-EGR was bad. THey also did a reflash (required by Jeep before ordering valve). EGR still bad, part ordered. Got call today (one week later), part is in, will have it fixed next week.

Tech told me all CRD sold at dealeship (10 of them) have had EGR problem (mine was last) and that '06 had "updated" EGR valve installed.

Tue Oct 04,2005

So tell us again how this several hour fix on your egr evolved from your earlier post. The way I read your post, it was 2 visits to get the egr replaced according your post, and a week to order parts. If that were the only visits I had on my CRD, we wouldn't be conversing now.

Quote:

Yes, I know some have problems, but if you look at who complains, it always seems the same ones

The issue isn't who is complaining, happy or sad, or whatever emotions anyone has. It's when a consistent pattern of failures, keeps appearing repeatedly and TSB's originating from early 2005 have not addressed the issue. Neither is the issue one of not liking the CRD. I like mine so much in fact, that I'm willing to go to extraordinary efforts to see if repaired. If I didn't like it, it would have been sold long ago.

If yours is running fine, I'm happy for you. Let us who are not getting warranty repairs performed correctly work out our issues the way we best see fit.

As far as it being the same people, what makes you think its only CRD owners on this forum having these issues. A coworker, who bought a CRD last summer, had the egr fail 1 month ago. 10 days later it was repaired - same story, waiting on STAR to release the EGR valve.

What are the statistical odds that one year later, the same model Jeep, purchased in two different states 11 months apart, have the same part fail as mine did, and get the same exact delay for getting it repaired?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I had a conversation with a Dodge mechanic recently, specifically asking if he was aware of any particular reason that Jeep dealerships might not want to work on CRD's (He is familar with the CRD but does not work specifically on them). His answer was somewhat enlightening. I'll paraphrase it here as best I can"

"Most don't like working on the CRD, not because its a CRD or a Jeep, but because its trouble. And its not just the CRD. Any vehicle that ends up with a lot of comebacks for the same problem, with no real fix from the factory is a pain in the behind and the mechanic gets the grief from both the dealership and the customer. The mechanics are told why they are at the dealership and its for one reason - to make money for them. If any vehicle gets a reputation for having long diag times, lots of blowback from the factory on getting parts, long delay on the parts and plenty of grief from the customers, you can bet they'll do everything they can to avoid working on it. It's hard money. Chrysler is getting harder and harder to get warranty work approved."

I have no way of knowing if his statement is accurate, but it seems to fit whats happening. And its not just DCX either.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

That's exactly what happened as I reported. First visit about 90 min to verify & reflash & order part. Second visit, dropped off got call 3 hrs later was fixed. Total time involved for me-a "few" hours.

So, by the way, if you tell the truth your story is always consistant. Not that you were calling me a liar or anything like that, i'm sure.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Exactly.... its the part of the truth that is left out that changes the entire viewpoint. A first visit, a flash and a week to order parts, plus a return trip is not exactly a repair in "a few hours." But your October post fits my point about DCX not supporting the CRD logistically - your post about your egr repair is originally listed in October 2005. Jeep started shipping in November 2004, halted for EPA certification and resumed shipping in January 2005. 10 months later, a minor part, an egr valve, is not in stock at dealerships. An egr valve is not a crankshaft, an engine block, a full transmission or a part that is usually too difficult or expensive for dealers to keep in stock. It's a valve that fits in a container smaller than a shoebox. Its a rather ordinary part.

The lack of in-stock status of such a simple part, last July for mine, last October for yours and this June for my co-worker shows the omission of logistical support for the CRD. It doesn't take years to get parts to dealerships or require minimum stock lists for a specific vehicle model. If its happening on the CRD, its by design at DCX. The consistent back order status is evidence of this.

When my glow plugs went out in early last August and STAR was giving the tech a hard time in authorizing the replacement parts (again, after the same treatment on the egr valve), I even tried to buy the glow plugs at my own expense, at 2 different dealerships and let the tech install them, just to save time. The tech was more than willing just to get the job done. Guess what? No glow plugs available - on national restriction according to the parts managers - their explanation is that STAR would not release them to individuals, only dealerships and only then after proof of failure. If they were fabricating their stories, at least they were consistent.

When my rear passenger window leaked air so badly that conversation in the back seat was impossible, it was diagnosed as needing a new channel frame, a unit inside the door frame that surrounds the glass. Another back order, with no delivery date from DCX! The explanation - the vendor who supplies the part to DCX has not scheduled the new shipments. After 4 weeks, its still not in, so another call - I'm told DCX will not provide a date and it is September before it arrives, after being ordered in July. Why do you think that is? DCX is not stocking parts for this vehicle in sufficient quantity. This is not an acceptable support model. This kind of nonsense is what tells you that unreasonable cost controls are being implemented at DCX, most at the expense of the CRD owner.

A lack of warranty performance exists from DCX if the dealer cannot get replacement parts in a timely manner and without spending inordinate amounts of time justifying a diagnosed replacement part. That includes the non-existant repair for the transmission shudder some CRD owners still have, including myself. In my case, 2 TCM flashes, 2 new tranny filters, 9 quarts of tranny fluid, and a new TC still have not fixed the issue. How long should we reasonably wait for a warranty repair from DCX? 1 year? 2 years? 3? It's been 16 months since I first identified this to DCX. With the cancellation of the CRD, the tranny fix won't happen if we don't make it happen.

This is why I think we should accumulate data, hard evidence, then send a letter to DCX asking for resolution. I never posted any of this nightmare information before because I didn't want to discourage new CRD owners from enjoying an excellent diesel engine vehicle. I thought they would eventually get this sorted out. But dropping the CRD is akin to washing their hands of the whole matter.

It's up to the owners now if any solution is going to happen.

GreggD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:03 pm

Yes, I know some have problems, but if you look at who complains, it always seems the same ones (and you know who you are).

vtdog, I'm going to put this as politely as I can. Speaking only for myself, if you have a something positive to add, like maybe a permanent solution to the problem, then by all means chime in. If not, then recuse yourself, stick your head back up your butt, & let us "whiners" figure things out.

PS- I apologize to the forum for any offense my comments may have caused.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Ranger,

Now at least you have a plan of action. Moaning and groaning on here does little, or nothing other than using up electrons. I strongly suspect that your "letter" to DCX will have about the same impact. For whatever reason (its always money I guess) owners are not getting good assistance from their dealers. Is the reason that DCX are being complete jerks? Are the dealers not getting paid? I realize that the big 3 are in trouble and probably deserve it (remember I took a chance too as this was my first american car in 30 years).

However, my point remains that the ONLY way you will get any satisfaction out of your situation is to resolve it yourself either through the good graces of the dealer, or legal action. Stamping your feet, or yelling here does no good. If I had your problems, I would be driving another vehicle right now. I had a ford truck about 10 years ago that I "lemoned" out. It was a pain in the booty (can you say booty here?), but you can (at least in NH) do it yourself without the aid of attorneys. One further thing based on my previous experience, it does not matter if one other, or ten thousand others have the same problems with the car you do. The lemon process involves ONLY you and bringing in info about a common problem is a waste of time (unless you are directly suing and not in lemon court).

BUT, you should be aware that the percentage of people with problems like yours and some others is very small and most owners are reasonably happy with their vehicles. I said reasonably happy as I have never been wild about any car since my '68 GTO Convertible got stolen.

So, drive it, or junk it, or sell it, or trade it, or lemon it, just dont whine about it!

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:34 pm

vtdog wrote:

So, drive it, or junk it, or sell it, or trade it, or lemon it, just dont whine about it!

You forgot to include modify it - you don't like discussions about modifications either remember? Personally, I think the moderators should delete any post that isn't 100% positive and dedicated to preserving the perfect engineering DC has achieved. Then maybe they could charge DC for advertising.

As for the letter, the only issues I have had so far are the oil in the intercooler which I bandaided myself, and somewhat lower than expected MPG. All in all, so far I love the little critter, but I am concerned about long term support for a two model year production run.

group letter to CX...

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