EPA & ULSD

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:31 am

jeepcrd wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

Has anyone actually tried any ULSD in a CRD yet? I mean ULSD with a sticker on the pump. And just as general information, come October 15, the only vehicle that will require it might be the ML320 CDI.

I saw an article saying the 2007 GC CDI would be released 1st quarter 2007 (http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto ... crd_diesel).

Makes sense - even late 2006, might be lots of long stretches without ULSD and you know when it comes to walking or driving if ULSD isn't available, standard D2 is going in the tank. Especially if its on a long hot stretch of Interstate.

What a DA thread this is, another Chicken Little discussion. I'm out of this thead you all have fun.

What a DA response. I did a search on your posts - you act like you own this place, do you? :lol:

J/K ... Man, you have a high post count - you must be wired at home with all kinds of internet access

Just a cranky old fart with a lot of time on my hands, nice wireless laptop, highspeed unlimited access internet, big reclinner, DishNetwork TV with a kazillion channels, who on ocassions get a little testy and short with people, but it is not personal and I would be more then happy calling most here my friend or someone I like including Ranger1. Yes I did get a little off base with the Chicken Little thing but it was better then getting mad a talking about someones IQ, parentage, social abilities or some other bad remarks, but it was meant as humorus. Beside if we all agreed on everything this would be a dull place that I would never be visiting.

That said, the thing with "Oh my God no more diesels" is really just childish and tends to upset me. Some of you people here need to stop and think about what you are saying about these diesel Jeep and diesels in general.

Lets assume that D/C keeps producing '06 diesels till Dec 21 of this year, does that mean there will be no diesels in '07? No, it means they are playing to the market and fears of people about diesel not being available or that they have to have a very special fuel only available at a few stations. It is really smart marketing now that I think about it as it gives engine suppliers time to build a stock of new engines like the MB V6 and VM Motorie to get caught up with and even ahead somewhat with production for the CRD engines we all like so well. (except those few who get a lemon)

What do you think will happen when D/C releases the GC & Liberty diesels advertizing then about Oct or Nov announce a say a Dakota with a CRD and all these vehicles are rated 28 to 35 highway. The same that is happening with VW and there TDI vehicles. EPA oked the sale in US of the VW Tourage V10 diesel some time ago, but VW is sitting on them (they are already here in US and dealers are ordering them) so that the dealers have a ramped up buyers for these $55k diesel hotrod's that cam blow the average gasser off the road. I think that there 0>60 is 6 sec or slightly less and still get low 20's on the road which is not bad for a 3 ton SUV, yes I said 3 ton. Dealers are asking $2k over MSRP on the TDI cars, go try to buy a used TDI now. What has caused this pricing spike is VW stopped importing of TDI's to US to be able to supply other markets such as Europe as the made the switch from PD to CRD engines and they will be back in '07 with diesels with even a bigger market created by both fear and an excellent product that people have decided they want and want now.

The same is going to happen here now with D/C in the US as they are the only one of the US big three (see further comment below) that can bring 30 mph to 100 mpg cars to the market. Dieter say the Smart car will be available in diesel as well as gas and gas hybrid. The Comander will be available in FFV for '07 starting with regular '07 introduction time (Sep?) then after Jan guess what, the MB V6 will be offered in combo with the MB 5 spd tranny and not a Dodge tranny as they will in the Jeep Liberty. Not to mention what is coming in the future for the Ram 1/2 ton. It will be late '07 models for some to '08 for others.

Now there are several other mfg's that will start showing up in the US with diesel engines, Toyota, Honda, and BMW to mention a few. I bet Toyota beats everyone to the diesel 1/2 ton PU truck market, I hope I am wrong about that prediction. Those mfg's have strong possibilities of really grabbing a healthy market share. VW has about the worst dealer rep in the country and I know a lot of people who would buy diesel Honda over a VW diesel, not to mention Honda's own loyal customer base and I guess the same could be said about Toyota.

All one has to do is stop and use some logic and realize that people will buy a Jeep GC that gets 35 mpg on the highway over anyother SUV that only gets 21 to 25 mpg on the road. Even if the difference is just 30% better MPG's that is a lot of money saved even if you have to pay as much as 10% extra for the diesel, that is still 20% better economy. Most places in the US it is seldom more the 10% and usually only 2.5% to 5% more and then in summer sometimes is less depending on what part of the country you are in when you buy fuel. Now add in the idea of using B20 nation wide and reducing oil imports will have a big effect on some people convencing them to buy a diesel. Same thing with E85 maybe, but I personally thing E85 is a flash in the pan as they say and will disappear in a few years if it last that long. But hey I hope I am wrong about the E85, but I don't think they can make enought to have a real impact on the market.

jeepcrd · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:46 am

oldnavy wrote:

a lot of time on my hands, nice wireless laptop, highspeed unlimited access internet, big reclinner, DishNetwork TV with a kazillion channels.

I knew you were hooked up, wireless, satellite, ect. Maybe someday I will be. I'm still using a dial up account :shock:

Good points in your post. I just subscribed to AutoWeek and got an issue about the 2006 24 Hour race at Lemans that was great. The winner was a new twin-turbo diesel powered car called the "R10" that just dominated. It was so advanced that everyone knew ahead of time that it would win unless it had massive breakdowns - they were 2-3 seconds per lap ahead of everyone else. Go Diesel!!!

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:03 am

I agree with oldnavy on this one.

The price premium on TDI's right now is why I gave up on a used VW TDI, and went with a used MB. Why pay $15K for a used Beetle when you can get a used Mercedes for $8K?

Sure, an '03 or earlier TDI can well exceed 50 MPG, extreme mileage compared to other vehicles, but the prices are also becoming extreme, in line with the "hypebrids". Same argument we've used in the hybrids vs diesel argument - how long is it going to take to recover that price premium in fuel savings?

MPG was a factor in my decision, but not the sole factor. As long as the vehicle was able to knock down good enough mileage to keep my monthly fuel bill for commuting in the vicinity of $100 (preferably as far below as possible), I'd be happy. The CRD has been able to do that knocking down 26 MPG average, even paying a 10 cent premium for bio at times, right at $100 for a monthly fillup.

From what I've seen of the '87 MB so far, it gives every indication of being able to beat the CRD in this department. It's an old enough design that it can easily be adapted to WVO/SVO if things really become painful, parts so far look to be far easier to get than for the CRD or a TDI, simple enough I can work on the bloody thing myself.

And on top of everything else, it's a MERCEDES BENZ for crying out loud! All other things being equal, what would you rather drive - a Beetle or a Mercedes Benz sedan?

I'd be willing to wager that with proper care that '87 MB will still be running long after most of the more recent TDI's have went on to their final reward.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:34 am

retmil46 wrote:

I'd be willing to wager that with proper care that '87 MB will still be running long after most of the more recent TDI's have went on to their final reward.

Amen to that brother. I'm still looking for the right buy on an older MB diesel myself. That said however about their price is to be taken with a grain of salt, a '96 E300 MB diesel will bring (check NADA or KellyBB) twice what a gasser with half the mileage will bring. Yes I have found a couple of '96 models that are in the $13,000 and just can't see paying that big a premium for a diesel car, as I wonder how long to drive out the $6,000 over gasser car it would take to break even.

I bet our CRD will bring close to original list price (privite sale) by spring just due to demand for diesel vehicles in general and Jeep in perticular. If by chance they start selling the VW powered TDI Caliber here in the US, you will see Dodge dealers asking $1000 to $2000 over list in the cities for sure. I just hope we don't see the same for the Jeep and other D/C offerings. I did a search for used Sprinter vans last night and only found one '03 with 54k miles in 1000 mile radius and the dealer had it priced $27,895 and I think that is what it listed for new.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

I have noted it before, but it is my belief that DC has taken note of this and other forums and seen that there are a considerable number of people (possibly knuckleheads like me) who are diesel fans and are willing to pay extra for the privilage. Thus, the diesels that will be sold, will be on expensive models. So, not only will you pay "extra" for the diesel engine, but you will have to buy the expensive model to just have the privilage of getting into a diesel. Look at VW/Mercedes. With the recent rise in gas prices, the TDIs that are being sold are all loaded with every option and one dealer even charges a premium beyond MSRP. If they can find people to pay 24k for a Jetta TDI don't you think DC will take the hint and realize that they can make more money selling the diesel in the GC which is the "flagship" of the Jeep line.

Be happy you have a "cheap" Liberty. It not only seems to be keeping its value as a used vehicle, but also seems "cheap", in relation to what is going to cost for a new diesel in the future.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:01 pm

vtdog wrote:

I have noted it before, but it is my belief that DC has taken note of this and other forums and seen that there are a considerable number of people (possibly knuckleheads like me) who are diesel fans and are willing to pay extra for the privilage. Thus, the diesels that will be sold, will be on expensive models. So, not only will you pay "extra" for the diesel engine, but you will have to buy the expensive model to just have the privilage of getting into a diesel. Look at VW/Mercedes. With the recent rise in gas prices, the TDIs that are being sold are all loaded with every option and one dealer even charges a premium beyond MSRP. If they can find people to pay 24k for a Jetta TDI don't you think DC will take the hint and realize that they can make more money selling the diesel in the GC which is the "flagship" of the Jeep line.

Be happy you have a "cheap" Liberty. It not only seems to be keeping its value as a used vehicle, but also seems "cheap", in relation to what is going to cost for a new diesel in the future.

For once, my friend, we're in agreement.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:48 pm

vtdog wrote:

GMTA

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:14 pm

I don't remember seeing this posted but, in the August issue of Diesel Power on page 42 there is an article stating that DCX is going to buy small diesels from VW for use in the US. They state that the engine is the 2.0 liter TDI for use in the Caliber.

Jeger · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:54 pm

bhysjulien wrote:

I don't remember seeing this posted but, in the August issue of Diesel Power on page 42 there is an article stating that DCX is going to buy small diesels from VW for use in the US. They state that the engine is the 2.0 liter TDI for use in the Caliber.

For use in the US? Thats news to me and I would love to see it.

As far as diesels being the pricey models. I dont think and certainly hope that that will not last more than a couple of model years. Once enough manufacturers are offering diesels one of them will offer them cheaper to make some sales.. and hopefully create some pricing competition. THE DIESELS ARE COMING :lol:

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Great Minds Think Alike

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Just one more thing to my previous post about rabid diesel owners. On Edmunds where they track the number of posts, there are over 6700 listings. Don't think diesel owners are passionate? Thats almost 7,000 postings for a car that only has been around about 2 years and has sold only 11,000 units. That is in ADDITION to the postings here and jeep forum. Try finding another group with that much passion (or venom).

I did find one other group with as high a quality of whining as some here : the SAABS. The purists are lamenting the fact that GM has taken over and homoginized their car by using other GM platforms and badging them as SAABS. Reading the posts is enough to make you cry (or gag)

AZ CRD · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:43 pm

Quote:

Just a cranky old fart with a lot of time on my hands, nice wireless laptop, highspeed unlimited access internet, big reclinner, DishNetwork TV with a kazillion channels, who on ocassions get a little testy and short with people, but it is not personal and I would be more then happy calling most here my friend or someone I like including Ranger1. Yes I did get a little off base with the Chicken Little thing but it was better then getting mad a talking about someones IQ, parentage, social abilities or some other bad remarks, but it was meant as humorus. Beside if we all agreed on everything this would be a dull place that I would never be visiting.

That said, the thing with "Oh my God no more diesels" is really just childish and tends to upset me. Some of you people here need to stop and think about what you are saying about these diesel Jeep and diesels in general.

Lets assume that D/C keeps producing '06 diesels till Dec 21 of this year, does that mean there will be no diesels in '07? No, it means they are playing to the market and fears of people about diesel not being available or that they have to have a very special fuel only available at a few stations. It is really smart marketing now that I think about it as it gives engine suppliers time to build a stock of new engines like the MB V6 and VM Motorie to get caught up with and even ahead somewhat with production for the CRD engines we all like so well. (except those few who get a lemon)

What do you think will happen when D/C releases the GC & Liberty diesels advertizing then about Oct or Nov announce a say a Dakota with a CRD and all these vehicles are rated 28 to 35 highway. The same that is happening with VW and there TDI vehicles. EPA oked the sale in US of the VW Tourage V10 diesel some time ago, but VW is sitting on them (they are already here in US and dealers are ordering them) so that the dealers have a ramped up buyers for these $55k diesel hotrod's that cam blow the average gasser off the road. I think that there 0>60 is 6 sec or slightly less and still get low 20's on the road which is not bad for a 3 ton SUV, yes I said 3 ton. Dealers are asking $2k over MSRP on the TDI cars, go try to buy a used TDI now. What has caused this pricing spike is VW stopped importing of TDI's to US to be able to supply other markets such as Europe as the made the switch from PD to CRD engines and they will be back in '07 with diesels with even a bigger market created by both fear and an excellent product that people have decided they want and want now.

The same is going to happen here now with D/C in the US as they are the only one of the US big three (see further comment below) that can bring 30 mph to 100 mpg cars to the market. Dieter say the Smart car will be available in diesel as well as gas and gas hybrid. The Comander will be available in FFV for '07 starting with regular '07 introduction time (Sep?) then after Jan guess what, the MB V6 will be offered in combo with the MB 5 spd tranny and not a Dodge tranny as they will in the Jeep Liberty. Not to mention what is coming in the future for the Ram 1/2 ton. It will be late '07 models for some to '08 for others.

Now there are several other mfg's that will start showing up in the US with diesel engines, Toyota, Honda, and BMW to mention a few. I bet Toyota beats everyone to the diesel 1/2 ton PU truck market, I hope I am wrong about that prediction. Those mfg's have strong possibilities of really grabbing a healthy market share. VW has about the worst dealer rep in the country and I know a lot of people who would buy diesel Honda over a VW diesel, not to mention Honda's own loyal customer base and I guess the same could be said about Toyota.

All one has to do is stop and use some logic and realize that people will buy a Jeep GC that gets 35 mpg on the highway over anyother SUV that only gets 21 to 25 mpg on the road. Even if the difference is just 30% better MPG's that is a lot of money saved even if you have to pay as much as 10% extra for the diesel, that is still 20% better economy. Most places in the US it is seldom more the 10% and usually only 2.5% to 5% more and then in summer sometimes is less depending on what part of the country you are in when you buy fuel. Now add in the idea of using B20 nation wide and reducing oil imports will have a big effect on some people convencing them to buy a diesel. Same thing with E85 maybe, but I personally thing E85 is a flash in the pan as they say and will disappear in a few years if it last that long. But hey I hope I am wrong about the E85, but I don't think they can make enought to have a real impact on the market.

You seem to have missed the point of my thread. Despite your inflammatory "Chicken Little" comment followed by a weak self-deprecatory apology followed by further insults, I neither said nor implied a tone of "Oh my God no more diesels". I was criticizing a governmental policy that would allow, nay encourage, the sell of 10 mpg Ford Excursions and the like while denying the availability of fuel efficient diesels. If you cannot see that mpg should be part of the calculation of total vehicle emissions, then God help you and your "logic".

I certainly hope that your optimistic prognostication about diesels and fuel efficient options in the US market will come true. However, the average MPG of our US fleet has declined over the past twenty years to the enrichment of the Friends of Bush/Cheney, both foreign and domestic. To believe that the market is unfettered by politics and greed is childish and rather upsetting.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:05 pm

AZ CRD wrote:

Quote:

Just a cranky old fart with a lot of time on my hands, nice wireless laptop, highspeed unlimited access internet, big reclinner, DishNetwork TV with a kazillion channels, who on ocassions get a little testy and short with people, but it is not personal and I would be more then happy calling most here my friend or someone I like including Ranger1. Yes I did get a little off base with the Chicken Little thing but it was better then getting mad a talking about someones IQ, parentage, social abilities or some other bad remarks, but it was meant as humorus. Beside if we all agreed on everything this would be a dull place that I would never be visiting.

That said, the thing with "Oh my God no more diesels" is really just childish and tends to upset me. Some of you people here need to stop and think about what you are saying about these diesel Jeep and diesels in general.

Lets assume that D/C keeps producing '06 diesels till Dec 21 of this year, does that mean there will be no diesels in '07? No, it means they are playing to the market and fears of people about diesel not being available or that they have to have a very special fuel only available at a few stations. It is really smart marketing now that I think about it as it gives engine suppliers time to build a stock of new engines like the MB V6 and VM Motorie to get caught up with and even ahead somewhat with production for the CRD engines we all like so well. (except those few who get a lemon)

What do you think will happen when D/C releases the GC & Liberty diesels advertizing then about Oct or Nov announce a say a Dakota with a CRD and all these vehicles are rated 28 to 35 highway. The same that is happening with VW and there TDI vehicles. EPA oked the sale in US of the VW Tourage V10 diesel some time ago, but VW is sitting on them (they are already here in US and dealers are ordering them) so that the dealers have a ramped up buyers for these $55k diesel hotrod's that cam blow the average gasser off the road. I think that there 0>60 is 6 sec or slightly less and still get low 20's on the road which is not bad for a 3 ton SUV, yes I said 3 ton. Dealers are asking $2k over MSRP on the TDI cars, go try to buy a used TDI now. What has caused this pricing spike is VW stopped importing of TDI's to US to be able to supply other markets such as Europe as the made the switch from PD to CRD engines and they will be back in '07 with diesels with even a bigger market created by both fear and an excellent product that people have decided they want and want now.

The same is going to happen here now with D/C in the US as they are the only one of the US big three (see further comment below) that can bring 30 mph to 100 mpg cars to the market. Dieter say the Smart car will be available in diesel as well as gas and gas hybrid. The Comander will be available in FFV for '07 starting with regular '07 introduction time (Sep?) then after Jan guess what, the MB V6 will be offered in combo with the MB 5 spd tranny and not a Dodge tranny as they will in the Jeep Liberty. Not to mention what is coming in the future for the Ram 1/2 ton. It will be late '07 models for some to '08 for others.

Now there are several other mfg's that will start showing up in the US with diesel engines, Toyota, Honda, and BMW to mention a few. I bet Toyota beats everyone to the diesel 1/2 ton PU truck market, I hope I am wrong about that prediction. Those mfg's have strong possibilities of really grabbing a healthy market share. VW has about the worst dealer rep in the country and I know a lot of people who would buy diesel Honda over a VW diesel, not to mention Honda's own loyal customer base and I guess the same could be said about Toyota.

All one has to do is stop and use some logic and realize that people will buy a Jeep GC that gets 35 mpg on the highway over anyother SUV that only gets 21 to 25 mpg on the road. Even if the difference is just 30% better MPG's that is a lot of money saved even if you have to pay as much as 10% extra for the diesel, that is still 20% better economy. Most places in the US it is seldom more the 10% and usually only 2.5% to 5% more and then in summer sometimes is less depending on what part of the country you are in when you buy fuel. Now add in the idea of using B20 nation wide and reducing oil imports will have a big effect on some people convencing them to buy a diesel. Same thing with E85 maybe, but I personally thing E85 is a flash in the pan as they say and will disappear in a few years if it last that long. But hey I hope I am wrong about the E85, but I don't think they can make enought to have a real impact on the market.

You seem to have missed the point of my thread. Despite your inflammatory "Chicken Little" comment followed by a weak self-deprecatory apology followed by further insults, I neither said nor implied a tone of "Oh my God no more diesels". I was criticizing a governmental policy that would allow, nay encourage, the sell of 10 mpg Ford Excursions and the like while denying the availability of fuel efficient diesels. If you cannot see that mpg should be part of the calculation of total vehicle emissions, then God help you and your "logic".

I certainly hope that your optimistic prognostication about diesels and fuel efficient options in the US market will come true. However, the average MPG of our US fleet has declined over the past twenty years to the enrichment of the Friends of Bush/Cheney, both foreign and domestic. To believe that the market is unfettered by politics and greed is childish and rather upsetting.

Jeez here I am getting a talked down to, an booty chewing and general lecture on world markets and politics from someone I wasn't even talking to about things he leaves me with doubts of his knowledge of what he was saying, but hey at least no one threw a brick.

PS: The world I believe is operated on the chaos theory. The world powers that be, industry and gov, keep crap strired up, otherwise why would we need them :?:

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:29 pm

Anyone who blames "the friends of Bush/Cheney" for the past twenty years of declining mpg average is childish and rather upsetting. I've said it once and I'll say it again POLITICS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS BOARD.

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:55 am

I personally think that gas prices have more to do with the the currency exchange between the vast Mason/Illuminati peso conspiracy and the MIB anti hydrogen faction. Also you have to add in the fact that the grays don't like compact cars. :shock:

It's all in my manifesto that's stored on a surviving chunk of Krypton and is being guarded by out of work Stormtroopers (hard to get work after the Empire collapsed). Who says we can't talk politics. :lol:

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:26 am

NICE!

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:34 am

bhysjulien wrote:

I personally think that gas prices have more to do with the the currency exchange between the vast Mason/Illuminati peso conspiracy and the MIB anti hydrogen faction. Also you have to add in the fact that the grays don't like compact cars. :shock:

It's all in my manifesto that's stored on a surviving chunk of Krypton and is being guarded by out of work Stormtroopers (hard to get work after the Empire collapsed). Who says we can't talk politics. :lol:

Just got up and read this and got my day off to an excellent start.

Thanks man. :wink:

KJbob · **Posted:** Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:02 am

onthehunt wrote:

Anyone who blames "the friends of Bush/Cheney" for the past twenty years of declining mpg average is childish and rather upsetting. I've said it once and I'll say it again POLITICS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS BOARD.

Exactly!

AZ CRD · **Posted:** Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:46 pm

onthehunt wrote:

Anyone who blames "the friends of Bush/Cheney" for the past twenty years of declining mpg average is childish and rather upsetting. I've said it once and I'll say it again POLITICS HAS NO PLACE ON THIS BOARD.

Politics "has [sic] no place on this board" yet you insist upon voicing YOUR political beliefs. Beavis.

As far as Old Navy goes, you responded earlyier that this thread was a "DA" thread, whatever that means, and that you wouldn't lower yourself to post again. And, yet, you DID post again with your geopolitical BS views and your insulting, narcissistic tone. With your spelling and grammar, I have serious doubts that you have a firm grasp of the English language, much less anything else.

EPA & ULSD

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