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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:28 am 
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BiodieselJeep.com wrote:
retmil46 wrote:
The hand primer pump can be ordered separately as an option, but from reading one gent's experience over on tdiclub running a Stanadyne filter with a restriction gauge installed, the hand primer noticeably increases flow restriction thru the filter. Since I have an electric lift pump installed and can easily switch it's power supply fuse tap to an ACC fuse port for repriming the filters, I opted not to get the hand primer.
quote]

retmil: Hmm, but what if your lift pump fails while driving in the woods? Then you are back in the same boat with the potential to pull in air, get a bubble, then a stall. A hand primer would be handy then. Also, your lift-pump could be calibrated (lord knows how) to make up for the restriction from the hand primer.

The only reason I am even considering replacing the OEM head with another OEM is the primer pump. Its saved me twice now.


I've already had the hand primer pump on the stock filter head fail on me a couple weeks before I put the lift pump in. Remember the thread I posted about suck-starting a diesel?

There I was, no hand primer, no lift pump, and a filter full of air. All I did was take a piece of vacuum tubing and slip it over the filter vent valve, sucked until I got fuel up into the tubing, and then shut the vent valve. Worked well enough to get the beast running until I could fiddle with the hand primer and flush the crud out of it and get it working again.

That's one reason why I went with a centrifugal pump - if it quits working for some reason, it doesn't create any additional restriction to fluid flow, and the fuel system can continue working as it did stock - as a vacuum system. I tested this out when I installed the Kennedy lift pump, after it was plumbed into the system but no power, and the CRD still ran normally.

Also, the Stanadyne filter is a modular setup. You can delete or add options even after the filter is already installed in the vehicle. If at some time in the future I decided that I really needed a hand primer, all I would need to do is order the kit, take the cap off the top of the filter head, screw in the hand primer pump, and I'm done.

That's the main reason I decided to go with a Stanadyne, other than lower cost - it's easily changed over to a different configuration in the field, you're not stuck with any particular setup once you buy it. It also helps on the initial cost - you can buy the basic filter assembly at first, then purchase the optional modules one at a time if need be.

Now that I have a lift pump and fuel cooler installed, and given the quality of the Kennedy lift pump and the Racor/Stanadyne filter assemblys I've seen, plus the results so far from running with the lift pump and cooler with the stock filter assembly, I'm of the opinion that having to reprime the filters will be the rare exception rather than the rule once the stock filter is history.

If you're going out in the boonies and are worried about a potential lift pump failure and having to reprime the filters, you could do one of three things -

1 - Carry a piece of tubing that fits over the filter vent valve so you could "manually" reprime the filter (if you don't mind the taste of diesel).

2 - Carry one of the cheap plastic Mityvac vacuum pumps with a liquid trap that they sell for bleeding brakes, and use the same basic method as above.

3 - In my case, with a Stanadyne, I could have the optional hand primer pump thrown in the back, or install it on the filter before heading out into the boonies, then remove it for normal daily driving if I wished.

For that matter, the point where the TDI crowd noticed additional flow restriction from the hand primer was doing WOT acceleration runs to see what maximum flow restriction across the filter was. For normal daily driving and fuel flow rates, and with a lift pump to boot, probably wouldn't make enough of a difference to give a hoot about, particularly if using one of the 6" long filter elements sized for maximum flow rate.

Also, unlike the stock filter head, the Racor and Stanadyne units are designed to keep them from becoming air traps, the outlet being the high point on the filter head. In the main catalog on the Racor website, they have a one-page explanation on their philosophy of handling entrained air in diesel fuel. Better to continually pass small minute air bubbles thru the filter and thru the pump, of a size and rate that won't affect pump and engine operation, than allow it to accumulate into a large slug inside the filter head to the point that when it does get passed thru it can cause problems and even stall the engine.

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'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:53 am 
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Goglio704 wrote:
How did you decide on that particular thermistor? I'm betting you've done you're homework - and I want to copy the answers to the test. :wink:


Actually, that's what I did as well. Another CRD owner did the legwork and came up with this thermistor as a potential replacement. He ordered one and did a direct comparison against the stock fuel temp sensor at different temps - from 0 F up to 200 F - and compared resistance readings. While the Omega thermistor does have a slightly higher resistance at the 25 C reference temp (on the order of 50 to 100 ohms), this difference was consistent over the temp ranges he tested - the Omega and the stock sensor responded the same and have the same basic resistance curve, and he felt that the difference in resistance between the two probes, compared to the changes over the temp range, was small enough that it wouldn't make any difference. He's already been running for at least a couple weeks now with the Omega probe installed and no problems to report.

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'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:56 am 
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Jeger wrote:
He could always suck the air out by mouth :lol:


I can tell I'm never going to live that one down! :lol:

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'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:44 pm 
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Where have you mounted your stanadyne filter ? From your description it sounds like you are using it as a prefilter.
Where and how did you mount your lift pump? and how did you do your plumbing and electric and does kennedy sell a lp setup specific to liberty.
Can the thermistor be used without plugging it into the filter thereby defeating the fuel temp sensor?
If that is possible could you then mount your filter with your lift pump is there room am I crazy
Does the stanadyne come with banjo fittings or something better?

I think you are setting the gold standard on this and you will save many of us from injection pump failure down the road. Not many people have high miles yet so not that many pump failures but they are coming. As with the vp44 cummins dodge wanted to save money but had to give away a lot of lp's and injection pumps but fix the low pressure fuel supply and they run for ever (well, they run better anyway)

Sorry for all the questions

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His 96 12 valve 5/12's, 62/65/14, built pump, Hamilton head and cam, fluidampner, high speed floormats
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:20 pm 
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I just saw on another post that our CRD's are wired for a prime pump. Does that mean that we could just add a pump to our existing pump filter assembly with out changing the filter head? I would rather leave the stock filter set up on for right now since I haven't had any problems with it...Yet.

What lift pump does anyone reccomend? I would like one that I can adjust down to about 2-4 lbs of pressure.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Potential Lift Pump
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:50 pm 
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In doing a little reading on the internet, it appears that the Dodge 2500/3500 Cummins trucks use the CP3 to pressure their common rail as well. I find it interesting that on Summit Racing, you can get a lift pump that makes sure your "CP3 pump has ample fuel". If it is meant for them, why wouldn't it work with our CP3 on the Liberty. Are there many different versions of the CP3 and ours just cannot handle the positive pressures at the pump? Just wondering what everyone else thinks as I do some more research.

Craig

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BDD%2D1050226&N=700+4294763140+4294806411+115&autoview=sku


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:46 am 
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thanks to you oil heads for keeping up with this lift pump idea, from what I remember :? MRmopar said something about the excess pressure causing problems with metering fuel, my question is what is the extent of the problem?

bad things in expensive pumps, or just less efficient, or what?

could a lift pump be set to provide only a fraction of a pound, thereby filling the filter fully and not over pressurizing the CP3? would that require a throttle position sensor input to the pump?

I think this will get sorted eventually, we're still in the heart of the learning curve. (wonder what the '08 full size diesel guys are running into as far as problems and hot rod parts for those "ultra clean" rigs )

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:28 am 
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I just sent a bunch of pics to Cowcatcher (22 of them in fact) showing the insulation I've added to the fuel lines and around the filter in the engine bay, the fuse tap I added in the dash fuse panel to power the lift pump, and underneath the vehicle, showing the lift pump, fuel cooler, and how I've tapped into the quick connects and routed the additional fuel lines.

At present, I'm still using the stock filter assembly with a couple mods (my own vent valve and a New Holland farm tractor 5 micron filter) as a primary filter, and a 1R0750 CAT 2 micron filter on a Permacool filter head (courtesy of JC Whitney) plumbed in downstream as a final filter and tystrapped sideways to the battery for mounting.

The Stanadyne filter assembly and Omega temp probe are "in the mail" at present and should arrive the first of next week. I have to work next week and will be pulling nine hour days, so it will probably be next weekend before they get installed.

The Stanadyne will take the place of the stock filter assembly. The CAT 2 micron will remain as the final filter, the Stanadyne with a 30 micron element will be the primary filter (big chunks) and water separator. The gent at Reliable Industries was kind enough to measure the mounting holes on the FM100 he had on display and confirmed that it will fit on the mounting studs for the stock filter on the firewall.

I had considered staying with a 5 micron on the Stanadyne, but after talking with a couple local diesel repair shops they commented that with a 5 micron primary the CAT would probably never see anything or need to be changed out - ie, I'd essentially be running with 2 final filters in series. That also suggested to me that that would be adding unnecessary flow restriction to the system.

The lift pump is a 4 psi centrifugal pump, pulls approx 1 amp at 12 V, available from Kennedy Diesel, www.kennedydiesel.com . It is rather expensive at $195, but from the looks of it that pump will still be running when the Jeep is ready for the junkyard (rated life of over 10,000 hours). No pressure regulator, check valves, or prefilter needed. That's the beauty of a centrifugal pump - it supplies pressure and volume, it can't force feed like a gear or vane type (positive displacement) pump. Once pressure reaches a certain point on the outlet (in this case 4 psi), the pump will keep running and maintain pressure but it can't force any more fluid thru. Also, due to the basic design, if the pump does fail for some reason, it won't present any restriction to fluid flow and the CP3 injection pump will still be able to operate as it was originally set up, as a vacuum system.

The pump has 1/2" NPT connections on the inlet and outlet, and also has o-ring grooves on both connections so that if you desire, you can bolt two pumps end to end and double discharge pressure to 8 psi.

One caveat - the pump is completely sealed, and depends on fluid flow thru it for cooling. The sticker on the pump lists max temp as 140 F. Given what I and others have seen for fuel temps before starting any of these mods, and that Mopar64 mentioned that it was possible for fuel temp to get upwards of 175 to 185 F, I would STRONGLY recommend the addition of some type of fuel cooler hand-in-hand with the addition of this particular pump.

Word is that these pumps have given excellent service on Duramax 6.5 L trucks. But a Duramax also comes stock with a fuel cooler from the factory.

As a side note, I made a trip to the five-horned CJD dealer in Cornelius today, to see if I could get a first-hand look at a GC CRD and see what they had rigged up fuel system wise on it. They had one in the showroom, and two out on the lot. The two on the lot had stickers saying they would knock $8000 off the price (yeah, they're just selling like hotcakes). I crawled over, under, and around all 3 of them

Engine compartment fuse panel had a 20 amp fuse labeled "fuel pump". Imagine that. :evil:

I traced the fuel lines all the way from the top of the fuel tank to where they disappeared under the noise cover on top of the engine. When they entered the engine bay, the fuel lines switched over to high-pressure stainless steel wire braided hose, and had high-pressure metal quick-connects at the engine, such as you would find on a fuel injected gas engine.

No fuel cooler anywhere I could see, and at first, nothing that resembled a fuel filter such as we have either! :shock:

Looking at the front of the engine, just forward of where the fuel lines disappeared under the noise cover, there was metal housing with a screw-on top for a cartridge type filter. It was at most 5" high and 4" in diameter. Once I got home and was able to check out display pics of the engine sans noise cover and other hardware, it appears that this small cartridge type filter is the one and only fuel filter on this beast!

And good luck getting that noise cover off at the side of the road - held on with hex head bolts - you'll need wrenches to get it off. And the air filter and air inlet looks to be a variation on the same theme as that POS they put in our KJ CRD's - same size air filter, and the inlet tube running straight behind the grille, not even a baffle arrangement like we have on ours. Whole engine bay looks like it was purposely designed to force you to bring it back to the dealer for any service. And one of the computer modules mounted directly behind the drivers side headlight?

Overall impression - $42K for THIS piece of junk with interior by Wal-Mart? Small wonder that in the entire hour I was there looking at these 3 vehicles, often in the middle of a showroom full of salespeople, NOT ONE PERSON approached or said a word asking if I was interested in purchasing one of the three GC CRD's. I think they've just flat out given up trying to sell them and don't want to be bothered with them. I rather think they'd actually be relieved if someone stole them off the lot one night.

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'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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 Post subject: Re: Potential Lift Pump
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:45 am 
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dieseldawg wrote:
In doing a little reading on the internet, it appears that the Dodge 2500/3500 Cummins trucks use the CP3 to pressure their common rail as well. I find it interesting that on Summit Racing, you can get a lift pump that makes sure your "CP3 pump has ample fuel". If it is meant for them, why wouldn't it work with our CP3 on the Liberty. Are there many different versions of the CP3 and ours just cannot handle the positive pressures at the pump? Just wondering what everyone else thinks as I do some more research.

Craig

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BDD%2D1050226&N=700+4294763140+4294806411+115&autoview=sku


From what I understand our CP3 is the only one that has a lift pump built into the rear of the CP3 :( That means the whole fuel delivery setup to that pump is under a vacuum :oops:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:11 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:
I just sent a bunch of pics to Cowcatcher (22 of them in fact) showing the insulation I've added to the fuel lines and around the filter in the engine bay, the fuse tap I added in the dash fuse panel to power the lift pump, and underneath the vehicle, showing the lift pump, fuel cooler, and how I've tapped into the quick connects and routed the additional fuel lines..


So, I guess you would like me to post these pics huh? :roll: :wink: :lol:

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'06 CRD Limited, Lt. Khaki, MOPAR Slush Mats/Skids, DrawTite Front Hitch, Mag Lite, Yakima Bars, Thule Bike Rack, Fumoto, ORM, 245/70 Revo 2

Wish list: Lift, Boulder Bars, Something Bigger in the Front and Back, More Lights


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:07 pm 
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retmil46
thank you very much for pictures you are providing a valuable service. If you are ever in san diego I would like to buy you a drink and dinner.
techtim, dieseldawg; all of your answers are in this thread you just have to read it

co

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Hers 05 kj ehm, egr delete, unplugged fuel heater, exhaust improvements
His 96 12 valve 5/12's, 62/65/14, built pump, Hamilton head and cam, fluidampner, high speed floormats
His 91 12 valve stock


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:41 pm 
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For the fuel line and fuel filter insulation, I used 9/16" and 2 1/2" ID sleeving available from a local race shop, made by KoolMat, www.koolmat.com . Just saw an advert in the back of Diesel Power for similar sleeving with an aluminized reflective covering, www.thermotec.com .

Ranger1 wrapped the mounting head of his Racor filter with reflective tape, and said this drastically reduced the heat soak and lowered his fuel temps at the filter by as much as 10 to 20 F, as measured with the fuel temp sensor in the filter head.

Ranger1 took a slightly different approach than I did with the fuel cooler install. He used a small 2 pass fin and tube unit from Permacool, listed as a fuel/power steering/tranny cooler, 8" long by 2 1/2" wide, $35. He mounted it behind the grille in front of the electric fan, and routed a new hose straight from the fuel return port on the engine to the cooler, and then back to tie into the fuel return line going to the tank. Just going by feel, he said the fuel line coming from the engine was hot, and the line leaving the cooler was barely warm.

On my setup, I used a Setrab 3" high stacked plate oil cooler, mounted on the skid plate behind the transfer case, and routed the lines to and from the return line quick connect just forward of the fuel tank. In my case, I was just a little skittish about running fuel lines up to the grille after the fender bender two months ago down in TX.

Yesterday I did a 35 mile run with just above 1/4 tank of fuel, 95 F ambient temp, pushing toward worst case conditions for fuel level and ambient temp. Temp measured on the bottom surface of the tank and on the lines coming out of the filter were 105 F, 10 F above ambient.

On my setup, to improve airflow in stop and go driving and at idle, I'm looking to mount a couple of 3" square pancake fans to the cooler and tap into the wire I already have running along the fuel lines from the firewall to the lift pump to power them, with an inline fuse so that I can easily disable them for winter driving.

The advantage of Ranger1's setup is that he always has airflow going over his cooler, whether from the engine fan, electric fan, or being at speed.

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:50 pm 
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I started a new thread with some of remital46's pics of his setup and a link to the rest. Check it out here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=23117

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Dave

'06 CRD Limited, Lt. Khaki, MOPAR Slush Mats/Skids, DrawTite Front Hitch, Mag Lite, Yakima Bars, Thule Bike Rack, Fumoto, ORM, 245/70 Revo 2

Wish list: Lift, Boulder Bars, Something Bigger in the Front and Back, More Lights


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 Post subject: "That's not good...."
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:03 pm 
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The leaking filter head (see previous pics with part of heating element attached to removed plug) is taking 4 primes to fill-up every day, even after slopping vinyl sealant all over the plug. Taking to dealer for replacement under warrentee. (28k guess I need to drive more)

Described the leak to the part and service guys and they both said "That's not good..."...Yep, tell me about it.

Does the Racor 245 head come with all the fittings? All the pics I see look bare-bones. Since I get this OEM head for free, I won't mind ditching it if it still leaks. 'Course I won't be plugging in that heating element....another item unplugged Wahahahahaha

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:43 pm 
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Install a low pressure lift pump.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:05 am 
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[quote="Larry R."]Install a low pressure lift pump.[/quote
Trust me, I'm a fan of lift pumps. A suction system is inherently leak prone.

But the filter head is almost always a source of leaks and a Racor 245 is cheap (well, cheaper than a lift pump) AND time tested and proven so it seems a good thing to do first. Anybody know a source that ships a 245 with all the fittings and primer attached?

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD w/all the fixings
Elephant Hose, MAF (ORM), Amsoil Airfilter, nice when I get to drive it
1 EGRreplacement, but never again.
99.5 FrankenJetta TDI (R.I.P.): being turned into diesel hybrid!
99.5 Replacement Jetta TDI: deal of a lifetime, EHM, some other stuff


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 Post subject: Re: Potential Lift Pump
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:06 am 
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[quote="dieseldawg"]In doing a little reading on the internet, it appears that the Dodge 2500/3500 Cummins trucks use the CP3 to pressure their common rail as well. I find it interesting that on Summit Racing, you can get a lift pump that makes sure your "CP3 pump has ample fuel". If it is meant for them, why wouldn't it work with our CP3 on the Liberty. Are there many different versions of the CP3 and ours just cannot handle the positive pressures at the pump? Just wondering what everyone else thinks as I do some more research.

Yes the cp3 is used in the Cummins ISBe and the Duramax. But, as mentioned, there are differences and the internal lift/gear pump is a big difference. I am very skeptical about adding a lift pump the the libby cp3.

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HIS: '06 Liberty CRD - EHM , GDE eco, Brite Box, Stanadyne FM100, Cummins lift pump, OME lift
'06 Dodge/Cummins - Play truck; a couple of fans, a proper cam shaft, and man handled electrons by EFILive 500/900
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Stan Wright wrote:
Stan Wright wrote:
Tigafila - Where did you get your Racor unit?


I thought I'd post this info for reference. I just ordered a Racor 245 filter assembly (P/N 245R122) from www.blinefilter.com/store for $143. According to the part number this should include the heater element. The replacement filters (R25S) are $20.


I received the filter assembly today and I just wanted to post that it DOES include the heater element.

Here's a pic: http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/racor245.jpg

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ORM, air filter mod, and less restrictive exhaust has increased my 'everyday' driving 3 mpg.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:37 pm 
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Stan Wright wrote:
Stan Wright wrote:
Stan Wright wrote:
Tigafila - Where did you get your Racor unit?


I thought I'd post this info for reference. I just ordered a Racor 245 filter assembly (P/N 245R122) from www.blinefilter.com/store for $143. According to the part number this should include the heater element. The replacement filters (R25S) are $20.


I received the filter assembly today and I just wanted to post that it DOES include the heater element.

Here's a pic: http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/racor245.jpg

hi
does this filter include the fuel temp sensor that we need?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:32 pm 
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No. I was planning to leave the temperature sensor connected to the factory puck. Ranger1 and retmil46 have found a sensor that is promising which could probably used.

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ORM, air filter mod, and less restrictive exhaust has increased my 'everyday' driving 3 mpg.


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