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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:46 pm 
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Uffe wrote:
If those guys are used to gasoline cars they will always be astounded by how a diesel engine sounds!

Especially the KJ CRD has a rough motor sound. I don't know about you - but I love that :D


The CRD has actually a quiet running engine when compared to my Passat diesel outside the vehicle. In the vehicle it's opposite, I guess there's less insulation and/or thinner glass maybe.

None of us expects or wants the CRD to sound or run like a gasser that's for sure. I like the way it sounds less the bearing going out somewhere noise.... I'll tell you more when I hear the verdict.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:22 am 
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Your diesel ownership tells me that you should know how a diesel should sound and also the dealer seems to agree. I share your Diesel experience and then some. It occured to me that your sound could be something ratteling like maybe a couple of missing spot welds between two inner body panels or a shield in the exhaust system somewhere :(

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:24 pm 
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Joe Romas wrote:
Your diesel ownership tells me that you should know how a diesel should sound and also the dealer seems to agree. I share your Diesel experience and then some. It occured to me that your sound could be something ratteling like maybe a couple of missing spot welds between two inner body panels or a shield in the exhaust system somewhere :(


Thanks Joe. Yes we had the CRD on a dyno trying to source location of failure. Loose items were ruled out early. The grinding is coming from the engine and it is turbo related.

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2000 Golf TDI
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:39 pm 
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Uffe wrote:
Goglio704 wrote:
I bet you're right. The dealer put all those parts in trying to get it to sound like a gasser. In reality, there was nothing wrong. :roll:


Yeah man - just like I said. They were impressed by the engine sound and put mufflers on it all the time at the shop! Soddy engine just won't act like a REAL gasoline engine, because that's the only true engine in the world!!!1111

So let's sue DC for not making a diesel sound like a gasoline car.

Heck, if you can be sarcastic I can too.


Yeah, but I'm good at it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:40 pm 
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I'd have to agree, with that list of repairs inside of 20,000 miles, if it was myself I'd have resorted to legal action long ago.

If indeed the dealer is in full agreement and is actively helping you in a lemon law case against Chrysler, that alone to me speaks volumes that the vehicle IS a lemon and hopefully should carry significant weight with the arbitors.

As for negative comments concerning your case - agreed, standard Reflex comments, designed to stir up controversy and/or denigrate the reputation of the original party, attempting to give their comments "disgruntled employee" status, and seemingly attempt to maintain a good public perception of Chrysler's reputation. For someone who has admitted on this forum that they know nothing about how their vehicle operates and doesn't even own a basic set of hand tools, he certainly presents himself as an expert on the Chrysler brand. Given the tenor of his comments over the past year or so, I'm tempted to give credence to what some parties have reported - that after having done some investigating of his internet profile, this person is actually in the employ of a marketing firm paid to steer public opinion of Chrysler on public forums - in other words, a company shill.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:25 pm 
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geordi wrote:
And where exactly is Marcel's shop? I am looking for an independent shop that knows our KJs inside and out for when my warranty runs out.


Fix Em Haus, on Lombard in St. Johns (North Portland). Specialize in German cars, and diesels. Marcel is their Rastafarian VW TDI mechanic. He came highly recommended by the VW TDI owners forum, and impressed me when I had him do an inspection of a used TDI before I bought it. We chatted a bit about the Liberty CRD's, and I was surprised by how much he knew about them. That said, I have not yet had him do any service to my Jeep (I'm still under warranty).

Fix-Um Haus
7104 N Lombard St
Portland, OR 97203
(503) 286-0903

I bought my Jeep used from Timberline Dodge/Jeep, which is also a Sprinter dealer. If I could be certain I'd get a Sprinter-tech, I'd continue to take my Jeep there. However, when I bought the thing and they were prepping it, the tech who handed me the keys said "Hey I didn't know they made a Liberty with a diesel!"

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:42 pm 
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Warranty.....
Seems as though the..."Warranty" hasn't been much good so far.
You guy's take 'em in over and over and they never fix 'em.
Seems like a lot of excess stomach acid for little or no return......
Could be time to change the pattern...Don't you think ????

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Reflex is a douche




To the OP good luck on your case

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:10 am 
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Kellog13 - This is the first time I have ever seen all your issues in one place. Most of the threads I have seen from you have been asking about the quote that the CRD is a 'experiment' in a misguided attempt to demonstrate that we were somehow victims of a beta test. Based on that, I have generally disregarded your issues, because honestly someone who would mischaractorize statements is not someone I have much faith in to be telling the truth about thier situation. IF you have actually had all the issues mentioned, if you did no modifications of your vehicle yourself, and if you were treating it in a fashion that would not void the warranty(the actual warranty, not the one everyone wishes they had), then yes, I would agree that you have a lemon. Based upon several of your statements, I have trouble believing that is truly the case, but being as this is the internet, there is no way to prove it either way. One thing you could do to establish your credibility(if you even care to) with the skeptics like myself is to post a link to your case, its likely on your city/county/state website, I know that here in WA most cases are posted since they are public information. If not, no problem, I do understand privacy concerns. Hopefully you can understand why I have been so heavily skeptical, however.

Saber - How intellectually stimulating. I'm glad you've found a backbone thanks to the internet.

retmil - If its required, I will send an email to Darby via my work email address to confirm where I work. Once he sees the return address, there will be zero doubt that I have absolutely zero connection to Chrysler beyond what I have already stated(my gf's father works for them and has for three decades). If your not willing to have it proven, then I ask you to kindly stop slandering my reputation simply because we have a difference of opinion. I respect your right to have yours, I would hope you don't have to resort to slander and insinuation just because you have no real counter to mine.

And finally, the reason I have so much doubt about some of these people(Joe Romas/Kellog especially) is because as I have stated before, I work in the software industry for a very prominent developer. I deal every single day with 'computer techs' who think they know how things 'should' be done and who continually discredit the technical decisions my(and other) software developers make, without ever really understanding the regulatory landscape, the corporate partnerships, the international issues or even the technical challenges involved. Even the most simple seeming change has to clear several departments and several levels of test engineering and QA, because even if something seems small you never know who else you may impact.

When I see these people on here bragging about 'turning their own wrenches' I see much the same problem. Its not that I doubt that they have the skill to do basic work, just as most computer techs can fix a computer, its that they do not understand engineering, which takes a VERY different mindset and has a very different set of concerns. Quite frankly, there is a reason that the mechanics are mechanics and the engineers are engineers(and the developers/designers are developers/designers), they each require a different mentality and have a different set of goals. Unfortunatly, each group in my experience typically believes that they know best, and that the others are quite simply incompetant.

When I see a mechanic here(or anywhere) rant about how "If Chrysler had just done 'xyz' all of these problems would have been averted!" I cringe, do they honestly believe that that solution was not considered? Or worse, was tossed out because of a few cents on a slightly better part? Warranty and recalls will in the end cost far more than the few cents saved at production, which leads me to the logical conclusion: There is a reason why it was not done that way, even if it is not apparant to those who were not present when the decision was made. I see this happen all the time in software, and I have zero doubt that it happens in auto engineering just as frequently.

This is probably the third time I have attempted to explain my position on this. Perhaps this time some of you will read it and understand. I won't hold my breath however.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:29 am 
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Yes, we should be grateful that you took the time to enlighten us. :roll: Engineers are not the godlike creatures you portray them to be. The good ones actually seek the input of lowly technicians and mechanics. It is a perspective they don't get from their desk. You need to climb down from your ego trip.

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GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:29 am 
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Goglio704 wrote:
Yes, we should be grateful that you took the time to enlighten us. :roll: Engineers are not the godlike creatures you portray them to be. The good ones actually seek the input of lowly technicians and mechanics. It is a perspective they don't get from their desk. You need to climb down from your ego trip.

And I think you need to re-read my post. I already pointed out that there is a need for all the perspectives I mentioned. However that also needs to be combined with the understanding that your POV as a mechanic is not always the correct one, anymore than any of the other perspectives I mentioned. And you certainly are NOT aware of all the factors involved.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:47 am 
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Reflex.
Why don't you just go away since everyone has such a distored opinion of you here :shock: As a retired computer tech I've dealt with software generated problems more then I care to remember. As a person who works in the software industry for a very prominent developer your too hung up on defending your product :!: I realize what most of the decision making your talking about is true but try living in the real world dealing with problems in front of a customer.

You do know how many programmers it takes to screw in a light bulb don't you :-)r

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:58 am 
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I'm an engineer myself (semiconductor design engineer). I recognize that Reflex tries to shoot holes in anything anyone says. I suspect he is a verification engineer. I recognized this earlier when I posted my complaints about the CRD's engineering, and he hazarded a guess as to why I had so many problems (namely, the same problems everyone else has had). In terms of performing his job, he needs to poke holes in things, including hypothesizing about low-probability holes or holes which have little supporting evidence but are technically possible. This is an excellent trait to have for successfully verifying the item under test for his job. But in terms of dealing with people, he is just second-guessing them and calling them liars, and it just irritates them.

The good engineers know how to find fault with anything. The great engineers know how to properly "switch gears" when dealing with people, and turn this off.

- Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:33 am 
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Your right Reflex I take that back. you're an stupid hole. That last post proved it.


Your elitist attitude won't win brownie points among this group

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:40 am 
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Reflex wrote:
Goglio704 wrote:
Yes, we should be grateful that you took the time to enlighten us. :roll: Engineers are not the godlike creatures you portray them to be. The good ones actually seek the input of lowly technicians and mechanics. It is a perspective they don't get from their desk. You need to climb down from your ego trip.

And I think you need to re-read my post. I already pointed out that there is a need for all the perspectives I mentioned. However that also needs to be combined with the understanding that your POV as a mechanic is not always the correct one, anymore than any of the other perspectives I mentioned. And you certainly are NOT aware of all the factors involved.


Actually, I do agree with this. I'm sure there is more to the story behind some of these design decisions than we know. (This happens in my job all the time too.) However, I also believe that the engineered end result hasn't worked as well in practice as I suspect they were hoping for.

- Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:04 am 
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Y'all are providing some darn good reading.....
Keep up the good work. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:11 am 
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Dang, I've looked in here a few times hoping to read about a court case, but it's just endless bickering. You guys need to take it outside.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:09 am 
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Reflex wrote:
Goglio704 wrote:
Yes, we should be grateful that you took the time to enlighten us. :roll: Engineers are not the godlike creatures you portray them to be. The good ones actually seek the input of lowly technicians and mechanics. It is a perspective they don't get from their desk. You need to climb down from your ego trip.

And I think you need to re-read my post. I already pointed out that there is a need for all the perspectives I mentioned. However that also needs to be combined with the understanding that your POV as a mechanic is not always the correct one, anymore than any of the other perspectives I mentioned. And you certainly are NOT aware of all the factors involved.


I read your post several times. I find it condescending, and I am not thin skinned. Others seem to have a similar reaction. If it is not your intent to be condescending, you may want to think harder about what you write. If you consistently offend people, it could be that you are being offensive.

Who said I was a mechanic? My employer tries to title me as an engineer. I do not have an engineering degree, and I do not receive an engineer's pay, so I reject the title as much as I can. Titles mean little.

You seem obsessed with defending the "engineering perspective" of this vehicle. The engineering is over and done at this point. Of course there were considerations that we are not aware of. So what? Kellog posted about his lemon law fight, and you charged in to defend the engineers. Why? It seems normal to me that a limited production vehicle like the CRD would have some lemons. I think most lemons are made at the dealership rather than the factory, but that really doesn't matter to the owner of the lemon. They have to try to get their situation resolved in their best interest. A lemon law case is where this thread began and where it should have stayed.

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:05 pm 
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Don't be hatin! :evil:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:40 pm 
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I personally do not know where y'all (those who refer to the CRD as an experiment) come up with that statement....
The diesel KJ+other models now, are ALL over Europe, Canada, Australia, Africa, and everywhere but the good 'ol USA, and they're rollin' off the assembly line in Toledo for these markets every day.....
Maybe a marketing experiment for the USA....But an engineering experiment....Don't think so....
:wink:

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