Regardless of all the mutual BS, bottom line is LEMONS HAPPEN!!!

I've worked in a truck assembly plant for over 10 years. All it takes to create a lemon is someone having a bad day or getting distracted for a few seconds and missing just one step. With over 1000 people per shift and all the steps involved in building a vehicle, some days it's a battle not to build an entire fleet of lemons.

Someone forgets to torque down a battery cable, it shorts out and catches a truck on fire. Someone goes to lunch and forgets that he didn't torque down an axle nut, when they drive the truck off the line two wheels and an entire axle half shaft separates itself from the vehicle. Someone misses plugging in an electrical connector, and half of the electrical equipment inside the cab doesn't work. Someone forgets to torque a tranny cooler line, and it ends up burning up a transmission when all the oil leaks out. Or the parts for installing the engine oil fill are short from the vendor, no oil is put in the engine, and a yard jockey ignores all the warning placards and runs the truck anyway, trashing a 15 liter diesel engine.

You get the picture. And when management is more concerned with meeting production numbers and cutting costs than anything else, it makes matters that much worse.

I've been a DaimlerChrysler employee for over 10 years. I don't need my girlfriend's father to tell me about the business, management, quality, and cost-cutting decisions that have been made and the effects they've had - I've seen them first-hand for myself.

And as far as slurring someone's reputation - it would seem they've already done a fair job of that all by themselves.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

[And finally, the reason I have so much doubt about some of these people(Joe Romas/Kellog especially) is because as I have stated before, I work in the software industry for a very prominent developer. I deal every single day with 'computer techs' who think they know how things 'should' be done and who continually discredit the technical decisions my(and other) software developers make, without ever really understanding the regulatory landscape, the corporate partnerships, the international issues or even the technical challenges involved. Even the most simple seeming change has to clear several departments and several levels of test engineering and QA, because even if something seems small you never know who else you may impact.

When I see these people on here bragging about 'turning their own wrenches' I see much the same problem. Its not that I doubt that they have the skill to do basic work, just as most computer techs can fix a computer, its that they do not understand engineering, which takes a VERY different mindset and has a very different set of concerns.[/quote]

Reflex- you better get out more and take long deep breaths. My profession is AME licensed in Canada (aviation maintenance engineer). Check out the TC website, it means I activly work to keep aircraft in the air. That also means I've earned the right to "turn my own wrenches"and I've never bragged about it. I've written all the exams and well versed in regularatory requirements, TSB's, AD's and what QA means to the industry. Your life or you family's life may depend on someone like to me to stand firm when something seems fishy. So, please stay calm as there are people here who know a thing or two and have demonstrated some mechanical aptitude.

There is no website that I know of to post what happened. I'll scan and post the results when I get them.

Truckbouy2- Your right, the word experiment is meaning "marketing experiment" to the public. Also known is the european verision is very different to the NA model. DC did some huge recycling emissions to meet standards here with software and mechanical parts, something other manufactures could not meet at the time. In Canada this was huge to the VW dealers as 45% of sales are TDI's. A stop gap maesure was to reitroduce the old Jetta and Golf as the City version to keep sales generating with a cheaper alternate then the current. This was designed to float VW till the new TDI's arrive in 08, at least this is the story in Canada and just the way I see it...

_________________
2006 Touareg, current
2006 CRD Ltd, current (it's days are numbered...)
2005 Passat 2.0TDI, current
2000 Golf TDI
1991 Jetta Turbo Diesel (great car)
1986 Golf Diesel
1982 Westfalia Diesel
1979 Rabbit Diesel

We know you got a lemon. You should get money back or if you fancy another go you should have a sub libby. That we can all agree.

We respect your experience and appriciate fellows like you who mind that aircraft don't crash. That's your job.

This is quite a different field of expertise than aircraft, that you must know. I haven't heard of diesel powered aircraft yet, so I'm guessing there is a huge difference between your field and the automotive field, esp. diesel engines.

_________________
L.O.S.T forever!
Silver 2002 Skoda Fabia TDI, 235,000km
Former car: Jeep KJ 2003 CRD

DIESEL - saving millions of liters of petrol every day!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_DA42

What an interesting job you have Mr.Kellog...
And I might add.... THANKS....It's because of your dedication to un-compromised quality workmanship and to the most minute of detail, it's possible for us to board aircraft without apprehension.....You guys and gals are good....

_________________
05 KJ CRD Limited..
08 WK CRD Laredo
03 DR 2500 Cummins
13 Edge Limited AWD

Experiment in the sense that senior Chrysler managers publicly stated that the Liberty CRD in US production was an experiment to gauge market interest, and was never intended to be a long-term production vehicle. Given the generally poor dealer support we have had from Chrysler (poorly trained, or untrained, techs trying to troubleshoot a diesel, often breaking things and making them worse in the process), poor technological support (problem with the torque converter? F37 and neuter the torque curve rather than improving the TC), I think it is a fair statement to say the experiment led to a few lemons that Chrysler ought to stand behind.

Also, the CRD's sold in the US have one enormous difference from those sold everywhere else in the world... the 545 transmission with it's paper-weight torque converter. The #1 issue I've read about with the CRD's is the tranny falling down and going boom. Not a problem anyone else in the world has to deal with (unless they have a US market CRD that was exported.)

All that said, my Jeep has thus far been trouble free, and I love the little sucker. I am not much of a brand-loyalty kind of guy, but I'd hate to have anything happen to the CRD due to the inability to replace it with anything even remotely comparable.

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)

I wish I had known about this statement before I bought my CRD. This alone would surely would have kept me from buying. Don't get me wrong, I really do like this vehicle in spite of all the issues. If possible, I intend keep it until the wheels fall off. Never-the-less I can easily believe there are a lot more lemons out there than there should be. Hell on the way home from the dealer < 50 miles I lost all my coolant because the assemblers failed to remove the spreaders from the hose clamps when they installed the engine. That did not inspire confidence in the build quality of my first DC product. On top of that my confidence in the dealer network has only gone down hill from there. Without the expertise present on this site and the reputation of this engine elsewhere in the world I would have unloaded this vehicle long ago. At this point even though I'd like too I'm not sure I would ever buy another DC/Jeep product.

Good luck in your court case, If it had been me, I think I would have had a melt down long before this point.

Thank goodness for that, but I'm sure he would fit right in with all the oversized egos on the TDIclub. There are more than a few people there just like Reflex.

Guys you're not alone....I think you will find that any (05-07) 2.8L auto CRD has the 545 tranny. Australian models are identical (just RHD) and have the same issues with the TC etc

_________________
05 CRD Renegade

I bought the Jeep with a hope
That the Chrysler product would not make me a dope

I was a long time since I got an American car
I hoped it would not make me go to a bar

Two years with the little beast has been ok
Only a few times have I entered into the forum foray

At 10k I had the EGR
With the CEL on I did not want to go far

At 13k those awful Goodyears went to junk
I got some Michelins with more spunk

Normal maint does cost a big nickel
But so far the car has not left me in a pickle

Now I see the name calling going on
Nasty epithets make me want to get a bong

Gear heads whining about whose the best
The rest of us just want a rest

For those of us who just read for knowledge
We know that the goobers did not go to college

I just want the car to start
I have no desire to take it apart

Turn the key and go
I leave the repairs to those who are slow

So cry and moan if you must
But in the end, remember the Jeep will just end up as rust[quote][/quote]

Bravo.....
Excellent Prose

_________________
05 KJ CRD Limited..
08 WK CRD Laredo
03 DR 2500 Cummins
13 Edge Limited AWD

While the message is the same old stinky poo from Vtdog, I have to admit he at least put some effort into it this time.

_________________
Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

I'm amazed at the number of people who are surprised the dealer has problems diagnosing/repairing their diesel vehicle. Granted they should know how to fix what they're selling, but it never stopped VW.

_________________
2005 sport crd-SOLD No regrets

Sorry my presence is inconveniencing you. Somehow I'm sure you'll survive.

And I was a computer tech for years before getting an oppurtunity on the engineering side. Its amazing how your perspective changes when you are exposed to the reasons behind what previously seemed to be foolish decisions.

Geordi/Saber - Hows life as a lemming?

Panda-52 - One thing I will point out is that the CRD has had fewer issues on average than the gas Liberty. At least from what I am told by Chrysler.

Kellog13 & Retmil - You guys are making my point here. I do not deny that some CRD's are lemons. Some of every car are lemons, after all all the design and engineering in the world cannot save a vehicle from a bad day by the guy putting the part in place. My ONLY real point here is that the CRD, while having different types of potential issues than the gas version, is not necessarily more problematic on balance(Chrysler's internal data backs this up, sadly its not public). Sure, in any random sample you are going to have some extreme results, but that does not make it the norm. As pointed out by others on this forum, a place like this does not collect a random sample of individuals, it collects those who are either enthusiasts or those having problems. Both groups are by design going to have some of the worst(and perhaps best) results, rather than the overwhelming majority of owners who have no issues at all.

Kellog13 - Since you have explained your issue better, I have to say it does sound more like you have a real problem. Once again, the issue I had was with the appearance that you were implying that it was a experiment vehicle from an engineering perspective, perhaps I just read that into your post, but thats how it came accross to me. Yes, I do tend to defend engineers, after all, we catch all the doo doo when something goes wrong, and half the time the decisions were either beyond our control, or the best possible solution even if its still problematic.

Goglio - Yes, I do defend the engineers, I mentioned why above. I am not intending to be condescending, however I strongly feel there is a certain sentiment here that Chrysler is full of fools, their engineers don't know crap, and everyone here should be compensated for the dire mistake that is the CRD. Certain posters bash unmercifully on anyone who dares defend either engineering principle(myself) or certain design decisions(others), or simply attempt to label them as company shills(retmil). There is little tolerance here for anyone who actually, you know, likes the product. And thats just sad, because despite the issues some have had, the vast majority of owners have had no serious issues at all. If I did have a real problem, I'd hestiate to post it here, after all I'd just want some help solving it, not a page of Joe Romas and others going on about how much Chrysler sucks.

chrispitude - You are nearly spot on, although I'm an engineer far earlier in the product cycle than I think you believe(ie: I can and do write specs and participate in the development process to a degree), but I am glad you recognize the position even if you dont' agree with my approach. One thing I will say is that the crowd here for the most part professes to be very technical, and makes no hesitation to bash engineering, design or management. That has influenced my approach considerably, I feel I am doing no more than balancing out the viewpoint a bit, I only wish I knew more about engines so I could do it more specifically. If this crowd was more polite in its approach, I would be too, after all I don't just tear into someone in life who has a problem with a product I worked on, at least not someone who is being reasonable and who simply wants help or information on why a decision was made.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Reflex,

If you think everyone here hates the CRD, you haven't been paying attention. Most polls are strongly positive. My experience has been very positive, but I have also been very proactive. Many consider the CRD irreplaceable, at least currently. I like the exchange of knowledge here. Thanks to the information here and my own troubleshooting abilities, I have never had to take the vehicle to the dealer with my hat in my hand and beg them to fix it 'cause I had no clue what was wrong. I also have an above average dealer thankfully. I don't have much patience for either polar extreme found on here. People who want to modify or adapt their vehicle to their needs and wishes shouldn't be shouted down and told they are incompetent and messing with near perfection. People who have a lemon shouldn't be told they have to fix it themselves or sell it at a loss because they certainly must have caused their own problems. People who have nothing but good to say about the CRD and wouldn't change a thing shouldn't be shouted down either. And, finally, people who have a lemon shouldn't tell everyone else they are fools to keep such a POS. I have seen every one of these scenarios play out on here. If I have the time and patience, I cry foul. You and Vtdog both act as if there is nothing of value here, but you keep coming back. I really don't get that.

_________________
Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

Well, we are mostly in agreement. But the reason I come back is that I find the discussion interesting and I do learn a lot reading. My only complaint is the bashing that seems very common. The snide asides about five cent parts and bean counters. I do not believe the design is perfect, in fact if I believed that I'd be in the wrong profession. I also, however, do not believe that the people on this forum for the most part know what the real problems are, just the symptoms. As I said about the tech industry, I know a lot of people who can fix a computer, and most have thier own theories as to why something is messed up. They are also mostly wrong. Being able to fix a problem is not the same as understanding the issue, and due to that lack of understanding, you also introduce the potential to create a worse problem down the line with your 'fix'.

That dosen't mean people shouldn't try of course. Some might stumble into real solutions, and some may just have fun in the attempt. After all, the vehicle is personal property, everyone can do what they want with it.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

There is your problem. Even when making a somewhat positive remark, you find it necessary to insult people. Many here arrive at solutions through a lot of thought, research, effort, and previous experience. You insult them by implying that it's dumb luck.

_________________
Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

Without the original documents it is essentially dumb luck. Its not an insult to say that. Thats how almost everything is reverse engineered. The difference is that the skilled have a good idea of where to start looking, but that does not change the fact that they could be heading up a blind alley regardless. Any time your trying to repair something that you do not have full data on, you are hoping that things work like your guessing they will.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

"...what I am told by Chrysler". Chrysler internal data that is not public.

Since you're not associated with Chrysler in any way, you're privy to this info how?

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

As I have said before, my gf's father has been a Chrysler engineer for 30+ years. Before I bought mine, he looked into it internally to make certain I was getting a good vehicle. He has kept an eye on it for me the past two years.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD