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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Link to racer's original thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51023

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:15 pm 
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I believe that if the air pocket is big enough, it would surely stop the engine at any speed.

If several attempts to start the engine were made without success soon after it stalled and all the while the gas pedal was floored, I believe that it would have flooded the cylinders.

That's my take on it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Here's a link to Green Diesel's timing belt instructions, in case it comes to that: http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1729864 ... 8-meg?da=y

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Everyone,thanks for the help.Bigtime.

Update:
Took a plastic water bottle and pumped a 1/4 bottle of fuel and everything looks good.
No contaminates,no water separation.
Noticed that when I pump till primer is hard,few minutes later I have to pump again.
Not sure if that is how it is supposed to be.Also noticed that there was fuel around the filter head,but don't know if it was from me filling the bottle,so I pumped good and inspected the head looking for bubbles and found none.

Took Samco to engine hose off and inspected that the butterfly valve is intact,and open.

Took all but the bottom bolts off of the timing belt cover and was able to pry it open just enough to see that the belt is on and with my finger I tryed to pull slack in the belt and there was none.I know that this is not a complete inspection of the belt,but I wanted to quickly see if the belt was broken.guess it coulda been busted down low,but no slack up top.



:juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:10 pm 
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Well, that is good news! If the belt is still solid (no slack) then I don't think you had a valve failure due to timing change.

It still shouldn't be making any odd noises while trying to crank it.

Racer, this engine design is impossible to "flood" without another problem as the injectors are the only thing that lets fuel into the cylinders. If the injectors aren't stuck open, then they only let fuel in when the computer commands them to. You can't do any damage (or even make a difference) by starting it with your foot on the floor. The computer will simply ignore the input until it is actually running.

At this point tho... I'm stumped.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:28 pm 
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What about what I mentioned with the torque converter failure? Would that possibly cause these same symptoms?

I'm still leaning toward fuel though because of the similarities between Bub's clunking sound and racer's clunking.

Bub, did Keith give you any insight?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:00 pm 
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linewarbr wrote:
What about what I mentioned with the torque converter failure? Would that possibly cause these same symptoms?

I'm still leaning toward fuel though because of the similarities between Bub's clunking sound and racer's clunking.

Bub, did Keith give you any insight?


I don't know enough about the transmission connection to the engine to know if that could be a cause here. I've never had anything like that on mine. If the fuel was bad, I think he might have seen *something* in the bottle test... But at this point, anything is possible. The priming button does slowly soften up after pumping it, it isn't designed to build "pressure" as much as it is to just bring the fuel closer to the on-board injection pump's gear lifter.

I do know that if the pump / injectors get bad fuel or fuel starved... It will take a LONG TIME of cranking to get past that and get it running again. However, that would only sound like normal cranking with no start... Not making other bad sounds..

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:22 pm 
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I've been too busy to call.Been looking everywhere with a flashlight.
Thought I saw some fuel by the first injector,but turned out to be oil that I spilled when adding a bit of oil two weeks ago.


The fuel filter head has fuel shining all around it,none on top.Not puddling everywhere,but shiny with fuel on it.
Not sure that my priming would have coated around the whole thing,but who knows.

Would a motor that doesn't have fuel sound like a motor that does have fuel(besides starting)at startup?
It was loud.

I'm frustrated,there's a problem and I don't know what it is. :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:42 pm 
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First thing to do is to replace the filter head with the new and revised head if you haven't already done so. It eliminates the fuel leak which has been the cause of fires and a possible air leak. Eliminate that variable straight away.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:07 pm 
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I think your wife did it when she ripped off your lights and basket! :lol:

Terry

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Fulltimer wrote:
I think your wife did it when she ripped off your lights and basket! :lol:

Terry



Say that in English.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:00 pm 
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I shut down shop for the night,and decided not to take off of work tomorrow since I don't have a further gameplan.
Racer,I'm definitely going to replace the filter head now,but I'm still not sure I would be comfortable turning it over even after replacement.
What is this Diesel not showing me?



racertracer wrote:
Fulltimer wrote:
I think your wife did it when she ripped off your lights and basket! :lol:

Terry



Say that in English.



viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54153

Mabe this is my bad karma for getting mad at my wife for that.
:furious: Seems petty now.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Bub,

Try disconnecting all the injectors and then crank it. If it is noisy there is a mechanical issue we need to deal with. If not, then it is fuel or electrical...hopefully a fuel issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Bub,

My problem was twofold.

1. What caused my engine light to come on and the engine to sputter was water in the fuel from a bad batch of Biodiesel.

2. What caused my engine to stop running was air in the lines deriving from the open petcock on the fuel head (my fault). I had the smart idea to drain the bad fuel from the tank by opening the petcock on the fuel head and using a long 1/4" dia. plastic hose draining into a drum. The engine stalled soon after and would not start. This turned out to be a good thing because if it had kept running on that bad fuel, I would have lost the high pressure fuel pump and an injector because of all the water in it.

So to facilitate the draining, I purchased a flow thru inline fuel pump and installed it in the engine compartment near the head to help with the draining.

When good fuel started to flow, I began the process of trying to start it. After a day of this the engine started, it surged up knocking so loud that I thought I was going to see a lifter come right through the valve cover. I quickly shut it down and called a local Detroit diesel mechanic to ask him about the noise and if I had damaged anything. He said he didn't think so but that it was probably air in the lines that caused the engine to shut down, and a flooded engine that caused the loaud knocking. He said that the engine would eventually start and to just let it run. He said that the engine would eventually smooth back to normal. Easy for him to say, I thought.

To get the engine to ignite, he suggested I use a small squirt of either (be careful with either). I began to turn the key to start and stop in spurts until whatever bad fuel was left in the rail or cylinders had cleared. I used the smallest amount of either to get it to ignite, and I remained in the driver seat by the ignition key so that I could stop the engine immediately if it should begin to surge loudly again.

I finally got through the process and it felt like it took forever to clear the bad fuel out of the tank but it finally started with lots of white smoke coming out of the exhaust and loud noises from the engine, but it all finally cleared up.

I still think that you have air in your lines and the reason why the engine stalled.

If your fuel head had been leaking fuel for a while and you had been driving it during these hot summer months and in traffic, the problem might have just augmented, it was probably taking in air also and where the problem lies.

Count your blessings you didn't experience a fire like the other poster from Illinois experienced recently.

A word to the wise to the rest of you out there that have the original fuel head....... you need to change your fuel head to the new updated one, for safety’s sake.

I thank Keith at Green Diesel who walked me through all the steps and helped me, you should consider giving him a call.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:10 pm 
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GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
Bub,

Try disconnecting all the injectors and then crank it. If it is noisy there is a mechanical issue we need to deal with. If not, then it is fuel or electrical...hopefully a fuel issue.


Allright :BANANA: something else to try.
Mabe I'll take off half day tomorrow.

Disconect meaning?unscrew out of manifold,unhook hard piping,unplug wiring?



I tell ya,I can't thank everyone enough for help and direction.A true blessing.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Probably just unplug the connectors to each injector, since they are electronically activated. If we were at Lee's garage, it might be worth pulling the injectors, since he has that little camera scope we could put down in the cylinders to see any damage.

I think GDE is in the Eastern time zone, so maybe try calling Keith tomorrow.

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2006 Deep Beryl Green CRD Sport *SOLD 1/22/12*
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245/70/16 Destination A/T's
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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:28 pm 
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racertracer wrote:
Bub,

When good fuel started to flow, I began the process of trying to start it. After a day of this the engine started, it surged up knocking so loud that I thought I was going to see a lifter come right through the valve cover.


I believe this is the sound I was hearing,but no surge.Didn't start,just turned over some dang violent.
Same?




racertracer wrote:
Bub,
I still think that you have air in your lines and the reason why the engine stalled.

If your fuel head had been leaking fuel for a while and you had been driving it during these hot summer months and in traffic, the problem might have just augmented, it was probably taking in air also and where the problem lies.

Count your blessings you didn't experience a fire like the other poster from Illinois experienced recently.Luckily I read about this from you guys and unplugged mine and Shaggyislandboys

A word to the wise to the rest of you out there that have the original fuel head....... you need to change your fuel head to the new updated one, for safety’s sake.
Will do!

I thank Keith at Green Diesel who walked me through all the steps and helped me, you should consider giving him a call.Same thing LW was telling me.I talked to Geordi and got much help and knowledge from him.Didn't want to bother GDE till all avenues had been taken.
Luckily GDE found me.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:35 am 
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Keith (GDE) doesn't miss much on here, which is an awesome thing for a vendor to be that involved in any forum.

Ditto what LW said, you should be great with just disconnecting the electrical plugs on the injectors and giving it a go. The injectors won't do squat unless the computer tells them to.

With the timing belt being solid, I'm cautiously optimistic about the engine internals. Unless it somehow managed to inhale a goose, there shouldn't be anything mucking up the mechanicals inside your cylinders at this point. This whole idea of making a racket while cranking with just AIR in the lines is a new one on me... Never heard anything like that before. But I guess it's possible considering Racer had it happen. I would have (in his case) blamed it on maybe methanol in the bad biodiesel detonating, which would cause all manner of mayhem in a compression chamber.

Racer makes a good point tho: Even with the heater unplugged, you still have the factory fuel-suck system. In the insane heat of the last few weeks, vapor lock is a VERY real problem.
!!!! Sonofabitch!!!!! OK, I literally JUST NOW made the connection! You HAVE had a vapor lock incident! I completely forgot about what I am about to tell you - Two years ago, I was in Savannah for the summer. It was insanely hot that day, and I had been driving around for work. I did not have the external lift pump (at the tank) installed at that time. I get to one place, and just as I'm pulling into the parking lot, I lose almost all power. The engine starts knocking LOUD, but still running. I shut it down after parking (didn't have time right then) and went to work. On the way out, it started fine, but started knocking again badly within 15 seconds or so, and died on me in the exit of the parking lot. Would not restart.

A coworker who was leaving stopped to help me and told me about vapor lock in the lines - Not just a diesel thing, but an engines-don't-like-heat-either thing. I bled the system and it started for me after about 30-45 seconds of cranking (in 5-second runs) and did the same white smoke thing.

So... Try the unplugging the injector test, since it is fast. If all is quiet and smooth... Then you have a fuel issue.
To fix that and at least get the engine running and clear the lines, you will want to play "doctor" with your engine: Make an IV bottle. Get a 5 gallon jug of fresh diesel, and a long clear hose. Connect the hose onto the line from the filter that runs direct to the engine. IIRC, it is the fender-facing side. Try to set the hose up into the jug of diesel as close as possible. If you REALLY want to fix this quick, get a "Mr Gasket" type pump from the parts store (It will be about $40) and use the battery 12v supply to run the pump. Choose a pump that has less than 10psi of pressure, the diesel Mr Gasket works great, but any for a carb'd engine will too. The pressure will be listed on the package.

Let it pump the fuel into the CP3 pump for a few seconds, then give it a try. Once it idles normally with the clean fuel... Put it back to the stock fuel path... But install that pump on the outlet line from the tank, right AT the tank. This will prevent ANY air from forming in the fuel line, as the system will now be a positive-delivery design rather than a suction design. There is a wire already routed under the rear driver-side seat to power a pump, someone else hopefully has the link to the walkthrough for that wiring. I did mine the hard way - Ran the wire up to the engine bay fuse box and right under the relay.

Keep us posted... I'm going to go pass out now. :seuss:

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Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:47 am 
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KJ 119 wrote:

I believe this is the sound I was hearing,but no surge.Didn't start,just turned over some dang violent.
Same?



Yes, Same.......

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:32 am 
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Bub,

You just need to unplug the electrical connectors to each injector and then crank the engine. Feel free to call us after you do this and we can go through some other proceedures to root cause and fix the issue. Our number is (248) 977-9531.

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