biodiesel?

greiswig · **Posted:** Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:43 pm

I could be wrong, but...

WMO has always made me nervous because of dissolved metals, exhaust contaminants, glycol, and other things that cannot be filtered out but which may prove corrosive to the pump and/or injectors in the long run. I have to deal with the same thing on the biodiesel side, but I have less of a problem to start with given the feed stock. Seems like motor oil additives don't always burn, either, leading to deposits. Biodiesel, at least, runs clean. When I took off my cylinder head at 140k, even the machine shop was amazed at how little carbon there was on the valves, etc.

Vehicles like my Unimog? Sure...but that thing could probably run on bear wizz if it needed to. Low pressures, not very tight tolerances, etc.

And that is not talking at all about what kind of contaminants are being put into the atmosphere burning it. NIH lists used motor oil as a carcinogen...not the kind of stuff I necessarily want to be making other people inhale.

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:02 pm

I use a springboard bio pro 190. I've been making bio since 2006. I agree, WVO is too risky in my opinion, but props to those that have the balls to risk it in a modern Diesel engine. B100 works great in any Diesel engine as long as it does not have a DPF system installed. This rules out most 2007 and newer model year diesel cars and trucks in the US.

greiswig · **Posted:** Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:38 pm

ebbnflow wrote:

B100 works great in any Diesel engine as long as it does not have a DPF system installed. This rules out most 2007 and newer model year diesel cars and trucks in the US.

One other slight edit to this as I understand the issue: High concentrations of biodiesel may be damaging to certain engines that use a particular kind of emissions control which is only indirectly related to the DPF. Some Cummins and Fords (maybe more) started using an additional injection cycle every so often on a non-compression stroke. The idea is to force unburned fuel into the DPF where it will fire at such a temperature that it burns out the soot collected. (How this contributes to a reduction in emissions instead of the opposite is a bit beyond me, but...)

Anyway, since it goes into the cylinder but isn't burned, some of it washes down the cylinder walls and into the engine oil. For petrodiesel, that's probably fine because it will evaporate out. Biodiesel won't, and at least some manufacturers say it hurts the lubricity of the engine oil. I have a good friend who has looked into that latter part a fair amount and has the technical chops to do so, and he found that it didn't substantially change lubricity until it was at such a level that your dipstick would indicate a strong gain in oil level anyway. But that's only one data point.

If your DPF relies on an injector that pushes into the exhaust manifold instead of the cylinders, you're fine. Biodiesel acts the same in the DPF as petrodiesel does. But that extra injector didn't make most of the corporate bean counters very happy, so you won't find it on most vehicles.

Just FYI.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:58 pm

Dino-diesel doesn't "evaporate" at all, ever, because there aren't any of the volatiles in the fuel that COULD evaporate, unlike gasoline.

I suspect any engines that are having "wash down" into the oil are experiencing other more important and destructive problems, but in typical EPA fashion, burning MORE fuel - and putting PURE fuel into the exhaust where 0% of its power is used by the engine and 100% becomes emissions - is how they describe making LESS emissions.

The EPA's approach to science of emission reduction is the same as a vet trying to resolve big dog turds by giving the dog exlax. You are just going to have MORE crap to spray out, not less!

greiswig · **Posted:** Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:27 pm

geordi wrote:

Dino-diesel doesn't "evaporate" at all, ever, because there aren't any of the volatiles in the fuel that COULD evaporate, unlike gasoline.

I suspect any engines that are having "wash down" into the oil are experiencing other more important and destructive problems, but in typical EPA fashion, burning MORE fuel - and putting PURE fuel into the exhaust where 0% of its power is used by the engine and 100% becomes emissions - is how they describe making LESS emissions.

The EPA's approach to science of emission reduction is the same as a vet trying to resolve big dog turds by giving the dog exlax. You are just going to have MORE crap to spray out, not less!

Awkward, but... http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewconte ... ontext=etd Is a good read if you're inclined. Diesel has a higher vaporization temperature and different VOC composition from gasoline, but still nowhere near as stable as biodiesel. That's largely the reason you can smell diesel spilled from a long ways away. Can't do that with biodiesel. So I respectfully disagree that diesel does not evaporate at the temperatures engine oil sees.

I tend to agree with you on the rest, though!

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

Diesel evaporates as do all liquids. If diesel didn't evaporate it could not burn.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:08 am

A doctoral thesis? Wow - I haven't read one of those since I finished writing my own.

I admit, I missed the part where it would be evaporating off at engine oil temperatures - That certainly IS hot enough (190+ degrees) to cook off some of the more volatiles that would be there in trace amounts.

But considering that in a distillation column in the oil refinery, the diesel comes out much lower down (hotter section) than the lighter stuff - There shouldn't be any real volatiles left. That is why they are 'middle distillates' b/c of the temperature range where they finally boil off the column and rise out. Diesel doesn't "evaporate" when it burns though, it is sprayed into an extremely high pressure cylinder and explodes on contact with the air/heat. Hence why it is called a compression ignition engine.

You can hold a match 1/4" above a puddle of diesel - or even just drop the match into the puddle... It will go out. I've done this, diesel is extremely hard to light by match, you have to give it something ELSE to burn (like a paper towel as a wick) before it will easily catch. Gasoline... Not so much!

I don't know why we can smell a diesel spill (even on our hands) but I don't think it is the same compounds as would vapor off at much higher temperatures. I have had some sample containers sitting in my garage since I last brewed my own biodiesel - about 10 years ago! - as long-term observation samples for stability.

Regular ULSD diesel, commercial B100, my B100, and some various flavors of each - capped and not, etc.

Either way, the regular diesel looks the same as when it was put on the shelf, save for some dust on the bottles. Actually, they all do. The commercial bio looks like the day I poured it too, where my own bio seems to have darkened some, but nothing has settled out or grown from any of them. I have no explanation, as I would have expected algae growth in at least one of them. BUT... NOT ONE has evaporated in 10 years.

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

As stated diesel evaporates as do all liquids as they vaporize however slow that may be.

Diesel does not explode when it is injected into the cylinder. It vaporizes and then burns in the vapor phase. Liquids do not burn or explode. It is the vapor that burns whether in a compression ignition engine or spark ignition engine.

CIMARRON13 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:19 pm

I am aware that used oil can't be made into bio. I guess I should have just asked how you guys are filtering oil, whether it is WVO or WMO.

Greasey Bob · **Joined:** Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:34 am **Posts:** 228

I live in south florida and making biodiesel is not worth the time or expense or effort required. Not to mention that a biopro 190 costs more than a Jeep CRD.

I have an automated centrifuge I can filter 30 gallons of WVO in less time than it takes to do a good titration. Mine makes 3-5 passes and cleans the oil really well probably less than 1 micron. Cost is about three cents per gallon.

I find the risk of having methanol around not worth the risk. I have done experiments: I can get a rag wet with WVO and point a map gas blow torch at it and it will not light up. Methanol in a pot will ignite before a match gets to it, and burns blue scary stuff.

Obviously I am biased as I made biodiesel for about 6 months back in 2000 before determining it was dangerous and not worth the effort or time. And I have been running a two tank WVO system since 2000.

Eric_in_OR · **Joined:** Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:47 am **Posts:** 7

I run B99 until temperatures are expected to be sub-40 degrees F, then I switch to B50 until temperatures are expected to be sub-25 degrees F, colder than that I run B20. I've run B20 down to -10 degrees F with no issues. That's been the norm for the 77,000 miles that my CRD has driven, with the exception of road trips when I have to make due with with whatever dino-diesel is available.

shadow63 · **Joined:** Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:04 am **Posts:** 208

Thanks for the info

UncleBarJude · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:43 am

So, if I understand this correctly... As long as I keep an eye on my fuel filter I can run just about any blend of Biodiesel? Father-in-law found out that the diesel being supplied to a lot of the pumps in my area have B15 that isn't very clean. He said a lot of consumer diesel vehicles are having issues with blocked/clogged injectors. SHould I be worried? Would upgrading my fuel filter help at all?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:47 pm

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your father in law. Anything that is supplied commercially to a fuel station has to comply with the ASTM standards, and that includes cleanliness. If the fuel coming from the pump is dirty, then that is the STATION that is making it dirty and not changing their own filters. I would avoid those stations.

I would also question "injector problems" as an excuse for "I haven't changed my car's fuel filter in years" and the biodiesel is now actually CLEANING the system and that is what is filling the filter.

Biodiesel is well known as a fabulous fuel system cleaner, and yes, the result will be plugged FILTERS, especially if the fuel system (in the pump or in the car) has had lots and lots of regular diesel through it. There will be lots of gum to clean out from the dino diesel.

UncleBarJude · **Posted:** Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:36 am

Yea, I just want to get more informed about the subject. He is and has been a Diesel Mechanic forever and I think talkin' to the tanker drivers makes him feel important. Although, I want to think he is trying to warn me about those handful that are cutting corners as well. I super appreciate the help I am probably goin to avoid some place just to be safe than sorry since my wallet wouldn't appreciate any surprises right now.

biodiesel?

Who is online