Engine Rebuild Pics

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:57 am

Uhm... I have no idea who makes them, but maybe IDparts does? They list most of the manufacturers on their site with each part. It may just say OEM though.

ID has this: OEM Part Number: 5093889AB
Manufacturer Number: 21762142F

A quick google of that part number turned up a customs search (I think) that suggests these are an Italian sourced bolt. No idea who made them yet, but most of the results were in Russian. Maybe you have better luck with it, I'll try again tomorrow.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:07 am

Nothing budged when we checked the torque. If you guys really don't want to deal with it, see if arp makes a bolt that will work, and use their torque value. Otherwise TTY is a very reliable method. The elastic phase of a bolt is very predictable.

Also, 2005 service manual says to go 60 degrees.

I have my old ones if you want to know thread size and pitch.

Mike

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:54 am

Mike92104 wrote:

Nothing budged when we checked the torque. If you guys really don't want to deal with it, see if arp makes a bolt that will work, and use their torque value. Otherwise TTY is a very reliable method. The elastic phase of a bolt is very predictable.

Also, 2005 service manual says to go 60 degrees.

I have my old ones if you want to know thread size and pitch.

Mike

Thanks for letting us know Mike. Sounds like it's in excess of 65 ft/lbs then. If someone has a donor motor, we could slowly increase the torque on two bolts, and hopefully we land somewhere just North of 65. I'll ask Spoon since he will probably be replacing a rod. It might not be perfect since his pounded a valve, but I'll be happy if it's 70 roughly...
Oh, I copied and pasted that 40 degrees from the 2005 manual. You sure about that 60 degrees? Did you for certain put yours at 60?

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:08 pm

"7) Install connecting rod caps (Fig.108).Install rod bolts and torque to 10N´m(88lbs.in.).Torque bolts the next stage go 30N´m(22ft.lb.)plus 60°. Then with a torque wrench set at torque to 88N´m (65ft.lb), make a tightening check"

That's quoted from my copy of the service manual on page 9-227 (1472) that I downloaded from the link in the noob guide.. Maybe there's any discrepancy somewhere in the manual. I know we went 60deg.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:29 pm

Mike92104 wrote:

"7) Install connecting rod caps (Fig.108).Install rod bolts and torque to 10N´m(88lbs.in.).Torque bolts the next stage go 30N´m(22ft.lb.)plus 60°. Then with a torque wrench set at torque to 88N´m (65ft.lb), make a tightening check"

That's quoted from my copy of the service manual on page 9-227 (1472) that I downloaded from the link in the noob guide.. Maybe there's any discrepancy somewhere in the manual. I know we went 60deg.

You're right. On the previous page it's talking about some measurement of diameter of something. Not sure if it's a mistake or not, but I see where you got your 60 degrees. I get in trouble looking at this on my tiny computer try to pan around the page. page 1470 & 71 I think are the two pages with different values. :banghead:

lacabrera · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:43 pm

I came across the misleading torques for the bolts When I did mine. I looked back on old vm manuals and they all stated 22ft.lb plus 60. I added thread lock and torqued to 65ft.lb. That was several thousand miles ago and all going well.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:50 pm

lacabrera wrote:

I came across the misleading torques for the bolts When I did mine. I looked back on old vm manuals and they all stated 22ft.lb plus 60. I added thread lock and torqued to 65ft.lb. That was several thousand miles ago and all going well.

Thanks for the response! :BANANA:

that's what I'm talking about. I do worry that if they were a little on the loose side that they may eventually back-out though.

How many miles you think you have on them?

I was reading on a Porsche forum about some people using red locktite on rod bolts. They said it behaved the same as the factory oil method. Sounds like good insurance if they're a little under torqued anyhow.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:35 pm

Mountainman wrote:

lacabrera wrote:

I came across the misleading torques for the bolts When I did mine. I looked back on old vm manuals and they all stated 22ft.lb plus 60. I added thread lock and torqued to 65ft.lb. That was several thousand miles ago and all going well.

Thanks for the response! :BANANA:

that's what I'm talking about. I do worry that if they were a little on the loose side that they may eventually back-out though.

How many miles you think you have on them?

I was reading on a Porsche forum about some people using red locktite on rod bolts. They said it behaved the same as the factory oil method. Sounds like good insurance if they're a little under torqued anyhow.

This sounds like a good method for re using the old rod bolts.
Even if these rod bolts are TTY, they can be re used, but maybe only once.
The key is cleaning the threads really good, tightening the nuts to about 50 ft/lbs to seat the cap, loosening them, and then giving them the final torque.
The loctite will ensure the nuts dont loosen.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:21 pm

What is the difference between red and blue loctite? I'm genuinely asking here, I don't know b/c I usually don't use it. I'd use bear urine if that would keep these locked in place though.

As for the manual... It makes exactly zero sense to spec a torque figure plus degrees (so for TTY)... Then to spec a completely different and much higher torque figure for AFTER the degree procedure. That would guarantee a TTY bolt is snapped in half if it actually was a TTY.

Maybe they aren't using TTY anymore and this was a change in the spec that never removed the previous instruction from the book? This has happened before... I'm going to go rummage through the manuals I have and see what I can dig up.

Edit - There is a variation in directions on page 9-225 and 9-227 of the 2005 manual: The first says 22ft-lb plus FORTY degrees, the second says 22ft-lb plus SIXTY degrees.

The 2006 manual has the same information exactly on pages 9-1653 and 9-1655.

For me... I think I might just buy a couple bolts from IDparts and abuse them to see if they actually are TTY, and then go for 70ft-lbs with loctite and call it done.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:47 pm

Red + High Strength
Blue = Low Strength

The 65Ft-Lb number after the 60deg turn is to check that the bolts are indeed tight. No additonal torque should be applied if the procedure worked properly.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:52 pm

Red is high strength, "permanent" stuff that usually require heat to remove. I use a soldering iron to remove little scope mount screws I put red on.

Blue is lower strength (medium or low), I put it on the vibration dampener, drive line bolts, and others that you want to be able to remove without a torch...

I think green is low or medium, I don't fool with it.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:58 pm

Blue locktite is a medium duty thread sealer/locker. May be too much for soft metals and easily breaks down under high heat.
Red loctite is a heavy duty thread locker. Good only for cast iron and steel threads. Holds up better under high heat.

If its something with strong threads that you may never want to take apart again, use red.
If its something you might want to loosen later on, without ripping the threads out, use blue.

At work I sometimes use purple locktite. Its light duty stuff for soft metals like brass and aluminum. But it easily seals the threads on 5000 psi air lines.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 pm

Thanks for the info on the loctite - good to know, and I will definitely be using red on the rod bolts then.

As for the book and the numbers, here's what I found:

There is a variation in directions on page 9-225 and 9-227 of the 2005 manual: The first says 22ft-lb plus FORTY degrees, the second says 22ft-lb plus SIXTY degrees.

The 2006 manual has the same information exactly on pages 9-1653 and 9-1655.

For me... I think I might just buy a couple bolts from IDparts and abuse them to see if they actually are TTY, and then go for 70ft-lbs with loctite and call it done.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:20 am

I took a look at those 2 pages. I think the forty degree step is the proper torque to check the bearing clearances before installation on the crankshaft. The sixty degree step is for the final installation on the crankshaft.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:53 am

I don't think the bolts are TTY they are so short and no way will they stretch before breaking. The con rods on this engine are made as one piece, machined and than the lower half is broken into 2 to form the cap. This was the first time I have seen them produced this way. so I would be surprised if they would deform from an incorrect torque. unlike the three centre main bearing carriers that are made of aluminium that float within the crank case. A loose fit until the engine heats up and expands the carrier to form a tight fit. Again not seen that before. I recon the original design of this engine was to use an aluminium crank case and for some reason probably due to cost or weakness decided to go with iron.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:45 am

Makes me wonder if the people that have damaged main bearings were hopping in and just driving them too hard before the engine got warm enough...

turblediesel · **Posted:** Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:25 pm

Blue-Keeps fasteners from vibrating loose; can be loosened with handtools.
Red-Holds tight until heated (400 degrees?).
Green-"Wicks" into threads already tightened to keep a setting or deter loosening.

A fair warmup for any aluminum engine is essential. Aluminum engine parts can crack and break from thermal shock within the part. If you hop in your cold CRD on a cold day and drive up the mountain fast fast your head will probably crack. Maybe not fail right now but eventually tiny cracks within the part will connect the dots and fail completely. An Italian mechanic explained this to me as the cause for my friend's broken aluminum rod cap from his Alfa Romeo.

Another reason for a good warmup is the difference in thermal expansion rates between our iron block and aluminum head. A gradual warmup will mitigate movement and head gaskets aren't as likely to fail. My Italian mechanic stressed a patient warmup in the morning; not as important for restarts the rest of the day unless it was very cold.

I don't know of other diesels with aluminum heads but I don't know much. The possibility that these engines were meant to have an aluminum block is interesting. My Italian landlord had a new Alfa Romeo Alfetta with a VM Motori turbodiesel engine in the early eighties. Don't know how much of that engine was iron or aluminum.

That's my 2 lira.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:55 am

turblediesel wrote:

Blue-Keeps fasteners from vibrating loose; can be loosened with handtools.
Red-Holds tight until heated (400 degrees?).
Green-"Wicks" into threads already tightened to keep a setting or deter loosening.

A fair warmup for any aluminum engine is essential. Aluminum engine parts can crack and break from thermal shock within the part. If you hop in your cold CRD on a cold day and drive up the mountain fast fast your head will probably crack. Maybe not fail right now but eventually tiny cracks within the part will connect the dots and fail completely. An Italian mechanic explained this to me as the cause for my friend's broken aluminum rod cap from his Alfa Romeo.

Another reason for a good warmup is the difference in thermal expansion rates between our iron block and aluminum head. A gradual warmup will mitigate movement and head gaskets aren't as likely to fail. My Italian mechanic stressed a patient warmup in the morning; not as important for restarts the rest of the day unless it was very cold.

I don't know of other diesels with aluminum heads but I don't know much. The possibility that these engines were meant to have an aluminum block is interesting. My Italian landlord had a new Alfa Romeo Alfetta with a VM Motori turbodiesel engine in the early eighties. Don't know how much of that engine was iron or aluminum.

That's my 2 lira.

The Alfa you mentioned had the older style tdi with a 8 valve pushrod setup and 4 separate cylinder heads.(renowned for head gasket problems) The bottom half is principle the same as our CRD's (3 floating aluminium centre main bearing carriers)

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:11 am

turblediesel wrote:

Blue-Keeps fasteners from vibrating loose; can be loosened with handtools.
Red-Holds tight until heated (400 degrees?).
Green-"Wicks" into threads already tightened to keep a setting or deter loosening.

A fair warmup for any aluminum engine is essential. Aluminum engine parts can crack and break from thermal shock within the part. If you hop in your cold CRD on a cold day and drive up the mountain fast fast your head will probably crack. Maybe not fail right now but eventually tiny cracks within the part will connect the dots and fail completely. An Italian mechanic explained this to me as the cause for my friend's broken aluminum rod cap from his Alfa Romeo.

Another reason for a good warmup is the difference in thermal expansion rates between our iron block and aluminum head. A gradual warmup will mitigate movement and head gaskets aren't as likely to fail. My Italian mechanic stressed a patient warmup in the morning; not as important for restarts the rest of the day unless it was very cold.

I don't know of other diesels with aluminum heads but I don't know much. The possibility that these engines were meant to have an aluminum block is interesting. My Italian landlord had a new Alfa Romeo Alfetta with a VM Motori turbodiesel engine in the early eighties. Don't know how much of that engine was iron or aluminum.

That's my 2 lira.

the VW diesel engines (4 and 6 cylinder) all had aluminum heads, and I am sure that there are others. Good warmups are strongly suggested for those motors, too.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:16 am

lacabrera wrote:

I don't think the bolts are TTY they are so short and no way will they stretch before breaking. The con rods on this engine are made as one piece, machined and than the lower half is broken into 2 to form the cap. This was the first time I have seen them produced this way. so I would be surprised if they would deform from an incorrect torque. unlike the three centre main bearing carriers that are made of aluminium that float within the crank case. A loose fit until the engine heats up and expands the carrier to form a tight fit. Again not seen that before. I recon the original design of this engine was to use an aluminium crank case and for some reason probably due to cost or weakness decided to go with iron.

If you rotate a bolt to the point at which the outside extreme fiber of the steel reaches the yield point it will yield, long or short. Most TTY bolts have a slight reduction in diameter just below the head of the bolt to minimize the likelihood of inducing a crack at the root of the shaft at the bolt head and subsequent fatigue failure. I will look at my rod bolts when I disassemble my core for a rebuild, when I have time :dizzy:

Maybe in a year or two?

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